The first step in breaking from the pack and disrupting the status quo is having the agency to do so. Mike Muse has made a career of doing just that at the intersection of politics and pop culture. He’s the co-founder of the record label, Muse Recordings, the founder and CEO of LawChamps, a TV personality and ABC News correspondent, and the host of the Mike Muse Show on Sirius Radio. Breaking Schemas hosts Marcus Collins and John Branch chat with Muse about his unique and accessible approach to talking about policy, how he ended up at the intersection of politics and pop culture, and why “find your passion” was the worst advice he ever got. *Breaking Schemas is a production of the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative at Michigan Ross and is produced by University FM.*
The first step in breaking from the pack and disrupting the status quo is having the agency to do so.
Mike Muse has made a career of doing just that at the intersection of politics and pop culture. He’s the co-founder of the record label, Muse Recordings, the founder and CEO of LawChamps, a TV personality and ABC News correspondent, and the host of the Mike Muse Show on Sirius Radio.
Breaking Schemas hosts Marcus Collins and John Branch chat with Muse about his unique and accessible approach to talking about policy, how he ended up at the intersection of politics and pop culture, and why “find your passion” was the worst advice he ever got.
*Breaking Schemas is a production of the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative at Michigan Ross and is produced by University FM.*
On the idea of knowing your audience
18:45: For me, it's all about knowing your audience and knowing who this audience is and how I can deliver the same message that will gravitate towards them, but without changing anything. I'm very anti-that narrative of dumbing things down or making things overly simplified. I don't do that. I always believe that the audience can rise to the occasion. It's just a matter of the particular word choice. How do you say it?
On thesis of intersection the muse
2:46: I believe that many individuals don't participate in our democracy because they don't feel they have a place in it. They don't feel like they have a voice. They always believe that it's for them, those, and others who work for some fancy law firm, possibly work on Wall Street, or work in academia. And so they feel like it's for them. But what I love about having the conversation is to introduce them to how policy is really the agitator of everything that they love.
Following your curiosity beats following your passion
34:02: If you just give me politics, I'm not going to be happy. I'm not going to enjoy it. If you just give me culture, I'm not going to enjoy it. I'm not going to be happy. I have to be intersecting at the same time in order to make me happy. And so from there, that is how I found my passion. But it was really just following my curiosity. And I feel like we don't tell our students, our youth, and our children; just follow your curiosity, and eventually you'll find the thing that works for you.
(Transcripts may contain a few typographical errors due to audio quality during the podcast recording.)
[00:00:00] Marcus: Welcome to Breaking Schemas, a podcast that explores the dynamic changes of contemporary business through the lenses of the disruptors who’ve not only navigated the changes but have also rewritten the rules of the game. We’ll be sitting down with business leaders across a wide spectrum of industries to discuss their victories, their failures, and the biggest lessons they’ve experienced throughout their career to prepare tomorrow’s leaders — that’s you — for an ever-changing marketplace.
I’m Marcus Collins, marketing professor here at the Ross School of Business University of Michigan. I’ll be your host, along with my co-conspirator, Professor John Branch. Now, let’s get into it.
We are welcoming to the room, to the pod, my dear friend, my brother, my co-founder, my partner, my… I love this guy. Please help me welcome Mr. Mike Muse to the room. Mike, how are you?
[00:01:03] Mike: What's up, everybody? I'm so excited to be here with you, Marcus, and you as well, John. Marcus, we go back, back, back, back, back to Boy State.
[00:01:15] Marcus: Boy State!
[00:01:16] Mike: American Legion Boy State. And here we are still intersecting with each other. And I wouldn't have life any other way. It's been amazing going on this life journey with you. I love you, twin brother.
[00:01:29] Marcus: Now, here's the crazy part. In two years, come this summer, we would have known each other for 30 years. Let that sink in for a moment.
[00:01:38] Mike: Oh, my god, you and these numbers.
[00:01:41] Marcus: Okay. All right. So, there's so many hyphens when it comes to describing you. There is the co-founder of a record label, Muse Recordings. There's the founder and CEO of LawChamps. There's TV personality, as a correspondent on ABC News. There's radio host for the Mike Muse Show on Sirius Radio. There's the radio host or co-host on Sway 45 in the morning. Multiple hyphens. Good night. I don't even know how to, like, describe you. Tell me about the intersection of Muse as you describe it. What is the work that Mike Muse does?
[00:02:19] Mike: Yeah, I think my mother has the same challenge, too, trying to understand it all. But what I say is intersection of Muse is the intersection of politics and pop culture. And so, what I do is I get people to see lifestyle, policy through lifestyle. And that's sports, music, film, fashion, and technology. And the thesis of my work, Marcus and John, is that I believe that a lot of individuals don't participate in our democracy because they don't feel like they have a place in it. They don't feel like they have a voice. They always believe that it's for them, those, and others who are… work for some fancy law firm, possibly work in Wall Street or work in academia. And so, they feel like it's for them.
But what I love having the conversation is to introduce them to how policy is a, really, the agitator of everything that they love. I say, if you love your Jordans or your Nike, there was a trade policy that was established in order for us to trade with China, and that if you were to make these shoes in the U.S, I'm not making a political statement on this, but it would cost instead of 150, it may even cost 350, 450 because you have to factor in labor costs.
I talk about, if you like denim, denim is a commodity. If you like blue jean jackets, blue jeans, it's a commodity. There are other people involved who are going to set the prices for the avocado toast that you like or the upgraded Chipotle. That comes from trade between Mexico and the United States. And so, why have others in D.C. who don't look like you, not of you, don't understand the culture of Nikes or the sneaker culture being a sneakerhead, determine what the price of your sneaker should be.
And so, once I entered it from that space, then people begin to latch on. People begin to understand, like, “Ah, I do have a voice.”
[00:04:10] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:04:10] John: And so, really, at its core, that is the work. And I do it across the different mediums that you mentioned — through television and through radio, and then through other avenues that I participate in.
[00:04:20] Marcus: Yeah. So, what you're really uncovering, revealing for folks are all the mechanisms that are at play at a macro level to help them have much more agency, right? To not be a passive player in all this, that they can have more agency because they understand how these things work. What's your take on that, John?
[00:04:35] John: Well, Mike, I love it. First thing I got to know, who wears blue jean jackets? Come on.
[00:04:42] Marcus: It's a thing, John! It's a thing.
[00:04:43] Mike: John. Raise his hand, John. Raise his hand. Me, John? You don't wear… you have a denim jacket. Are you kidding me? That's the first thing I packed in my carry-on.
[00:04:55] John: So, first thing, which really struck me is, I love this concept of othering. And I think we could probably dissect that whole avenue of othering as the root of so many problems in society. But the idea of othering in terms of global trade, what you're really saying is, kind of, peeking behind the curtain into the backstage, because we as everyday citizens are just so oblivious to the 90, 95, 99% of activity which is happening backstage before we, we can even see the play on the front stage.
[00:05:31] Mike: Absolutely. That's exactly what has happened. It's to bring down the curtain. You know, John, there's a lot of theories out there that there's, like, you know, 10 white men in cloak and daggers who are making the decisions based on our democracy. And that's actually not the case at all.
Think about the local level, your city council, for example. Your city councils, they have so much say in terms of what happens in your city. But normally, for city council members, they only need to raise about maybe $20,000 for their campaign. Now, Marcus and John, put that in perspective of a presidential campaign. A presidential campaign, if fundraising dollars are needed, they're averaging about $1 billion now.
So, put that in context in a local race for, like, a city council person only needs about $20,000. The difference here is not only just the money but the turnout. Normally, for a presidential election cycle, maybe, let's say, in the city, you would get 30% turnout for a presidential election. When it comes to your local race, like a city council, you'd probably get, like, 5%. So, that really translates roughly, I'm just using random numbers here, audience, to maybe, like, 1,000 people voted for that city council person that is now determining when your streets get mowed, what parks get designated as a green park or a dog park or a yoga park or what get parked at as a skating park, what park gets determined to have baseball fields, football fields, lacrosse, soccer, right? Should we get a yoga park? That city council is really determining the zoning that is going into your city in terms of, should we have a Chipotle? Should we have a Sweetgreen? Should we have a McDonald's? Like, what should we put in this area? Or, most importantly, should we have none of that? And so, that is all determined by 1,000 people.
Even to go even more in depth, you think about your school boards. I'm talking to two academics right now. Education is such a hot topic right now, socially, politically. We don't have to get into it. But a lot of these decisions about what books your kid is reading, do you know, comes down to, possibly, a stay-at-home parent who just decided to run for the school board and they only needed about 100 votes to get in there because people don't really care and think about the school board? But people don't understand that it's a school board that is determining curriculums, it's the school boards that's determining and allocating budgets. And so, all the things that we're always complaining about, we have the power to actually make the change, either to run for elected office or just to vote.
And so, it really comes down to that level, but the way social media, and I know I'm talking to some social media experts and media experts here, has really created an erosion in our democracy and has really not allowed for honest discourse. And the reason why I love that work is you'll get music, you'll get lifestyle, but I call it putting sugar on medicine, right? Like, it tastes good going down. But once it gets in you, it actually has the ability to heal you and to make you feel better. And I think that is what's been happening with our audience. And it's been beautiful to see the audience grow as I grow, right, and learning?
And I get it, John. I get DMs from individuals saying, “I voted for the first time.” I had one of my most memorable calls, Marcus, was I got a guy who called into the show, and he said, “Mike, I've been listening for some time now. I finally registered because of you. And it's because of you that I'm sitting in the parking lot going in to possibly cast my ballot. But why should I get out of my car, right?” And this was live on air, and so, having to talk with him, like, about that.
[00:09:00] Marcus: Now, the thing is that, when I think about someone who does that, I go, “Oh, they must've studied political science. They must've been really, you know, spent their career in community activism and social building and grassroots mobilizing.” So, school us here for a moment. How do people normally get into the work that you do? What's the normal trajectory?
[00:09:23] Mike: The normal trajectory is that someone will possibly graduate college, majoring in political science, or some other liberal arts degree. And they will work, possibly, for a campaign. And let's use a senator, a senatorial campaign, or let's say let's use a presidential campaign. And so, what they'll do is they'll work for a senatorial campaign or a presidential campaign. They'll knock on doors. They'll do phone calls. They'll do grassroots movements. And then, from there, once that candidate wins, then they would typically follow that candidate, to Washington, to D.C., to then get called to work on the Hill, so to have a spot working in the chamber of the senate, if their candidate was in the House of Representatives, to work in the chamber of the House, or to work in the executive branch of the White House unto itself. And then that's, kind of, is a foray. Or, they'll work in their candidate's local branch. And so, since we're in the state of Michigan right now, the senators have branches in the local cities, in the state of Michigan, as well as in D.C. So, they can work in that too as well.
So, that is one trajectory. Another trajectory is I'll go to law school and I'll become what we'll call, like, policy walks, right? And they will help shape and craft legislations and bills, like, from a legal perspective. And so, those are a couple of different ways that people will traditionally get into this space.
[00:10:37] Marcus: Yeah. John, does that add up for you, too?
[00:10:39] John: Yeah. You know, it reminds me of a former colleague who, here at Michigan Ross, his name was C. K. Prahalad. Marcus will remember him. He had this really brilliant idea called the dominant logic. And he argued that one of the problems with a lot of industries is that everybody who works in that industry is brainwashed by the dominant logic. And it seems to me that you have, kind of, reinforced one of the problems of politics, is that you have this dominant logic about pathways into this world. And this podcast is called Breaking Schemas, right? Trying to break out of that dominant logic. And you seem to be a poster child for not following the dominant logic. Can you say a bit more about not being part of that dominant logic?
[00:11:27] Marcus: Yeah, and how'd you got here?
[00:11:29] Mike: Yeah, I think that gives me a competitive advantage, John and Marcus, with the ability to create critical analysis and the why is because Marcus and I were part of the college of engineering. So, went to University of Michigan, major industrial engineering, and did about two, three years for, depending how you added up, of nuclear chemical research. And with nuclear chemical research, I actually took the research on the role where I actually was able to place third in a regional competition.
[00:11:54] Marcus: Small flex, small flex, small flex.
[00:11:55] Mike: Yes. But I use that example very strategically because, when I went on to do these national competitions, I was in front of judges who weren't that familiar with nuclear chemistry. And so, I had to find a way to present this material in this subject in a way that reflected the work, but also, too, was able to translate it into spaces to which they could understand the nuance of the work.
And so, when I go on to talk about, you know, healthcare or education where I can get asked a question on the spot and I'm able to really unpack it, it's because that critical thinking that the college of engineering prepared me for, and it's also, too, the critical thinking that my research prepared me for.
And because Marcus and I started a record label, I got introduced to lifestyle very early on in the music business. And so, in the music business, when Marcus and I were doing it, it looks different now, but at the time, music really shaped culture like no other. You know, think about it in terms of music was like the TikTok. Music was the Instagram. Music was the Facebook. It really drove culture. And so, as a result, I was at the fashion shows, you know, chilling with Marc Jacobs, you know, Madonna, like, all these people.
[00:13:13] Marcus: Flex, flex, flex, flex, flex, flex, flex, flex.
[00:13:18] Mike: Really understanding lifestyle. And so, when you understand lifestyle and you're at the precipice of it, and Marcus and I created, like, good marketing campaigns and we went on tour. So, if you understand lifestyle the way that we did, that means you understand people, right? And you understand movements, which is why Marcus is a bestseller with his new book, because he understands people and movement and culture.
And so, you put it all together, you combine culture, understanding people, having a lived lifestyle, but then with the technical background that I have, you put all of us together, that's what makes me so uniquely qualified to be in the space and position I'm in.
[00:13:56] Marcus: I mean, John, these things seem totally disparate coming together to make the alchemy of something very special, right? It comes to this idea called bricolage, Mike, that's got a Levi Strauss sociologist talk about this idea of creating new things by bringing things together, normally have nothing to do with each other, to come together to create something unique.
And Mike, you are a testament of that, right? As I know you, the only thing I knew about you that you knew about politics was doing Boy State when you were in high school, right? And then here's a guy who's like, “I'm going to be an engineer,” focused on industrial, but doing work in nuclear chemical work, and then goes into the music industry. And then somehow another says, “You know, I'm going to work for this little junior senator in Illinois who's thinking about… who has the audacity to run for president. And he's Black, by the way (Barack Obama).” And worked that campaign being, sort of, not of that world, but having a way of seeing the world through a rigorous analytical lens that is engineering, learning how to communicate really complicated ideas, complex ideas, so that people who aren't familiar with the space can better understand it, understanding how the vehicle of culture is so influential to humanity, pull those things together to operate in a space they don't know very well, good night, that is, I mean, that's bricolage at its finest. Wouldn't you say that, John?
[00:15:21] John: And you know what else is really key here? And it's such a simple and, perhaps, obvious idea, although things are only obvious when somebody points them out to you, one of my friends, Marcus Collins, quotes that all the time, knowing your audience, right? Mike, you, you have a particular message, you have a particular communication goal, but, you know, here at the Ross School of Business, all communication courses start with the same simple idea: know your audience.
So, if you're trying to change minds among a certain cultural demographic group out there and they are hip-hop fans, where are you going to be, right? You're not going to be on NPR or PBS evening news. You're going to be on a morning show. I mean, that's just such a simple and obvious idea, but a lot of people don't follow it.
[00:16:11] Mike: I just hope that this is being recorded, because I cannot wait to send this out to the world. It's like, “This is what I do. And these are my publicists and these are my reps, and these are my professors.” I could come on this show any day of the week because, like, my self-esteem is, like, up right now.
[00:16:29] Marcus: It should be.
[00:16:30] John: We'll send you the invoice, Mike. Look for the invoice in the mail. The invoice is coming.
[00:16:35] Mike: Thank you. But John, you're right, the idea of knowing your audience. And I think that that is a challenge that we see in politics today. And I'm talking to two marketing geniuses here, advertising geniuses, you guys would know this little world better than I would, but when I think about politics right now, these politicians, they go on the same platforms and expecting different results every time to reach an audience that are not on these platforms. And I always find it so laughable. And then when they get someone who's out of college, who are on their team, who think they should be on this latest podcast or this latest TikTok or this latest other show, and they're so out of touch that it doesn't translate, it actually hurts their brand and actually hurts democracy. Because just because, let's say someone who sells tire, who's a big tire influencer on TikTok, right, maybe has, like, 2 million followers on TikTok, but his work is about tires, you shouldn't use that person to come to your campaign to then talk about education, right? Like, they're not an authority on it.
But for far too often, we see politicians doing exactly that, trying to attract a new audience. And so, for me, it's all about knowing your audience and knowing, “All right, who is this audience? And how can I deliver them the same message that will gravitate towards them, but without changing anything?” I'm very anti that narrative of, like, dumbing things down or making things overly simplified. I don't do that. I always believe that the audience can rise to the occasion. It's just a matter of the particular word choice, right, and how you say it.
And so, I would say the same mess on the morning show, as well as I would say on my own show, but also, too, on Good Morning America, I'm saying the same thing, but I do recognize the audience that I'm in. But then, also, too, understand our segments can only be two minutes and 30 seconds, up to four minutes. And so, like, how, then, do I restructure based upon time and time intervals, but then also, two, understand the audience, but then, understanding, how can I hook them in?
So, I had this segment now, Good Morning America, called, Monday Morning Quarterback with Mike Muse. And so, just to give you guys examples of how it's the same thing, just presented differently in 2 minutes and 30 seconds, one conversation was about looking at the college football playoffs at the time before everything got finalized. And I saw that we had Michigan, we had Ohio, we had Florida, and we had Georgia in the top four. And I said, what do all these things have in common? You know, these are key battleground states that are coming up in 2024, which the bedrock of this election will be the youth vote and the college vote, right?
So, bringing in all of these things, and that's something I would say on the morning show, right, but then bring it into a 2-minute, 30 seconds, knowing I need to have graphics, do I need to… it needs to look really cool, quick, right? Got to have some fun with football, right? But it's also, too, education. We go in and talk about the economy and economics. And so, all these things that we talk about is just knowing your audience but without changing the thesis. It's the exact same thesis that I have.
[00:19:40] Marcus: You know, that football reference is actually quite brilliant. And I think it goes back to your earlier point, right, like, the thesis says the same, the work is the work, right? You are driven by a conviction, right? You were driven by a north star, as it were, that guides the work you do in all the many ways that it manifests.
And as you talk about, sort of, the traditional way things are done, it feels like there's a traditional way things are communicated to a group of people that are traditionally spoken to, which means that there's a group of people who are disenfranchised, who are not a part of the discourse, and therefore feel like they don't have any role to play in this at all. And therefore, they are systematically subjected to being passive, which goes back to the original point about helping them gain some agency.
And as I hear you talk, and John, I’d love for you to, sort of, underscore this, if you agree, that here, like, what you're using is agency as a disruptor. It's about providing people agency by making them aware, by speaking in ways that they can understand but still maintain some dignity, right, speaking in ways that are digestible yet accurate to the things so you don't dumb it down, right? But you ensure that it has all the texture and nuance that it needs, but it's still able to be digested. This idea of agency makes you very, very unique, regardless of what you do, which is why you get text messages and emails. And by the way, I get text messages about you, too, like, “Just love Mike's show. He always says it in a way that I can just understand it.” And because of that, people feel like they can do something. John, am I barking on the right tree here?
[00:21:24] John: I think you're spot on here. A couple of things which come to mind. The analogy which I sometimes like to use, this modality, as what you said, Marcus, I say, I think Mike is singing the same melody but in a different key.
[00:21:37] Marcus: Mm hmm.
[00:21:38] John: Right? To bring it full circle back to music.
[00:21:41] Marcus: I see what you did there, John. I see what you did there. That was clever. I see what you did there.
[00:21:44] John: Yeah. And Levi Strauss, we could also talk about jean jackets again, if you want. Bring it in full circle. We're all three in the same business. We're educators, right?
[00:21:53] Marcus: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:53] John: Our classrooms might be different, right? The lesson plans are slightly different because you've got to deliver your lesson in two and a half minutes to four minutes; whereas, we might have 90-minute sessions. But at the end of the day, we're in the same business. We are educating.
[00:22:10] Marcus: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:11] John: Marcus and I are educating for agency in the world of careers, if you will, right? We're trying to educate these students so that they have agency over their lives. And you are educating people so that they have agency in their lives but in a political context. We’re in the same business, my friend.
[00:22:31] Mike: We are. And I can do tons of jokes, but in the interest of keeping us linear and keep us on track, again, self-esteem is up, I love that I send a different key. But I love that you guys zeroed in on agency. And that is always the hope and the outcome in the work that I do. I have a simple prayer. I'm not going to say what my prayer is. It is for me and God. But part of that prayer is education. And it's a big part of me. And if you notice, gentlemen, I didn't talk about partisan. I talked policy, but I didn't talk partisan.
And so, for me, it's about getting people to understand their agency, having agency, because now they actually understand the policy. Now, it's up to them to determine how is it they use that agency, and in what ways do they use it? Do they use their agency to donate to a campaign? Do they use their agency to volunteer? Do they use their agency now to sign up? Do they use their agency to vote? And then, like, who do they vote for, right?
And so, example that I did recently, just came up in my tour, speaking to it with Chevrolet. And part of it was I curated this Black futures conversation about AI and technology and all the bells and whistles, you guys can imagine what that was about. But I had an individual there that was from Meta. But I intentionally, one would think, would have a computer science major or engineer. No.
What I did was, it was college campuses, I had an individual who worked in the policy department of Meta. And I wanted those college students to understand to what the point of what you guys are working on in this podcast about disruption, you know, non-traditional, breaking the mode, is one can major in sociology and work for a place like Meta, right? Because we need sociology majors to really understand society, to help work with teams, to really understand how society is engaging with the product, right? We need political science majors who are majoring in college to go work for Metas and the Googles of the world, you know, to really understand and shape tech policy to prepare it for these candidates and these politicians who don't know about tech policy. I'm not knocking anybody, but… so, this is, kind of, the work that you guys are doing. For me, that is the agency that I'm always trying to impart, is, I get it, we can have a soapbox. I love when people tweet things and like and all the things and get some riled up and emotional. I don't like that. But at some point, we had to advance the conversation to a solution, right?
[00:24:58] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:25:00] Mike: And the solution has to come from one's own agency and knowing that you can have a part in our democracy.
[00:25:05] Marcus: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:05] John: You know, Mike, I love what you're saying about liberal arts students can go into STEM fields and policy people can go into tech. Unfortunately, I think the narrative these days is that liberal arts students have no careers after they graduate, right? There are these, you know, these pathways that, if you want to be in business, you have to have a BBA, if you want to be an engineer or tech, you got to have a computer science tech degree. Love what you're saying, and I love that you got examples of what I would say enlightened companies like Meta hiring people from all different backgrounds, that the power in the diversity, right? Diversity, not, not in our traditional ways of thinking about diversity, but diversity of thought, diversity in backgrounds, which ultimately will lead to, to the solutions.
[00:25:55] Marcus: I mean, this is the irony here. I guess not ironic. I guess it's coincidental that all three of us are engineers. In fact, John was electrical engineering.
[00:26:02] Mike: Oh, snap. What up, John?
[00:26:05] John: The difficult one, not the cheesy ones you did.
[00:26:08] Marcus: Are you done? He always goes in on materials, always goes in on materials, always.
[00:26:13] Mike: Marketers, we like to say to people like John, “Well, we sign your checks, young man. Keep toying with your circuit breakers. That's super cute.”
[00:26:28] Marcus: But John, to your point, here we are. We started in the same kind of home as engineers but took engineering as a way of analyzing or interrogating the world, i.e., as engineers, we're taught to apply logic to problem solving. Like, that's what I've always known the definition of engineering to be. But I think about it a little bit more concretely, that we analyze the world by looking at the underlying physics that govern how things work, right? We look at everything is made up of systems, understanding the systems. And if we understand the systems, then we can start to impact them. We can leverage the mechanisms inside the system and actually change it. You know, John, you have done this brilliantly over your career as an educator and as a marketer, right? As a songwriter, I always thought about what are the core changes? Those are the systems that I thought about. And as a marketer, and now on the academic side, I'm always thinking about, what are the underlying physics of humanity, like, the cultural systems that guide what we do?
Mike, what you have done in the world of politics, like, what are the micro and macro systems that are at play that impact everything? And I think that, like, not to, sort of, oversell engineering, but in that that's really where the heart of things are, that if we leverage our undergraduate studies as a way to learn how to learn, to learn how to see the world and interrogate the world and make meaning of the world, then we could take those skills and go elsewhere.
Now, John, if you got something spicy to say about materials engineering, you and I go fight.
[00:28:00] John: I was going to agree with you. And you know another thing which all three of us have in common? We were all performers. And it seems to me that this ability to interrogate the world, as you said, the underlying physics, the systems, the structures of things, combined with our, I don't know, natural God-given talents in performing or our learned talents in performing has enabled us to break into the world of education in our own particular ways.
[00:28:30] Marcus: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Mike used to play a mean saxophone back in the day.
[00:28:34] Mike: Yeah. All to the jazz band, baby! Drum major from our marching band. But yes, exactly what you guys were saying. In particular, John, the last part you made about the performance aspect of it, I think that's part of what you, gentlemen, have been talking about, too, as well, is about knowing your audience. Like, this stuff doesn't have to be boring, right? And things don't have to be, like, esoteric. And I think people in the political space and the academic space, you guys love talking to each other, too, as well, over coffee, right? And you love writing your white papers, right? Like, you love examining case studies, so… and politicians love talking with themselves. They love doing things in D.C. They love that beltway speak, right?
But I think those of us who understand the act of performance understands that this doesn't have to be boring. And I think it's because we all three of us love what we do so much, it's fun for us, and then, so we can make it fun for other people too as well. To use a neutral example, I never was a fan of history. Ever. And it wasn't until recently — when I mean recently, it was recently — I had the pleasure of meeting this retired history professor from West Point. And he wore hearing aid in both ears. And so, he was very loud. And so, he couldn't really understand, like, just how loud he was. And so, he didn't care.
And the more drinks that he had, the louder he would get. And he couldn't modulate his own self. And the stories he would tell over history would get more colorful and colorful. And he would turn red. And he's loud in the restaurant. And I ate it up, because I'm like, too, what you and Marcus are talking about, he was performing. And I was like, “This is so fascinating.” But he wasn't being performative in a way that was being hyperbolic or in a way that was being exaggerating tales or using different words to draw me in. It was just, you could tell he loved it and he was so colorful with it. And then from there I wish I had more history professors and teachers like him, because I probably would have loved history so much early. And so, now, I feel like I'm catching up in other ways because now I love history, right? But it took somebody to unlock that love, but it took somebody to perform. And so, I think that's exactly what you guys are mentioning.
[00:30:50] Marcus: I see another hyphen in your future, my friend, Professor Mike Muse. I see it. I'm claiming it. I'm putting it in the world.
Yeah. I mean, like, you’ve been so gracious at the time, man. We're so, so thankful for you being as vulnerable as you've been and really taking off the veneer of how you present yourself to understand the intentional decisions that you made. So, I want to ask two more questions of you, quick questions of you, before we let you go, get out of your hair here. What was the worst advice you were given? As you were navigating your career, what was the worst advice you were given?
[00:31:21] Mike: Find your passion.
[00:31:23] Marcus: Oh, please unpack that for me.
[00:31:26] Mike: I hate it. I think the reason why so many young people right now are depressed and having so much emotional anxiety is because they're on this whirlwind of trying to find their passion. In society, we don't find our passion and we won't be happy.
And so, for me, I never had a passion, right? And discovered it now, but before I get to the discovery aspect of it, you know, I enjoyed music, right? But, like, I didn't have vocals like Marcus. I didn't have the creativity skills to produce like Marcus. And so, I knew my limitations. I wasn't going to do this. Like, I can't dance. I was never going to, like, Juilliard, right? I can't act. Like, I…
[00:32:00] Marcus: You can dance, Mike.
[00:32:01] Mike: Yeah, but you know, I couldn't do an eight count. Yeah, at a nightclub, you know, all good, right? And so, like, I didn't have the desire to be a teacher or a police officer or a doctor. And I was like, what am I? Who am I? What do I want to be? And I felt really bad about that.
But it was just following my curiosity and saying “yes” to things that led me to what my passion is, which is intersecting politics and pop culture. If you just give me politics, I'm not going to be happy, I'm not going to enjoy it. If you just give me culture, I'm not going to enjoy it. I'm not going to be happy. I have to be intersecting it at the same time in order to make me happy.
And so, from there, that is how I found, I guess, my passion. But it was really just following my curiosity. And I feel like we don't tell our students and our youth and our children, “Just follow your curiosity. And eventually, you'll find the thing that works for you.” And so, that's from me.
[00:32:51] Marcus: I like that a lot. And it's interesting, the word, “passion,” because colloquially we talk about passion like something that you're interested in and that you really care about, that you're fired up about, but passion actually comes from the religious text. And passion actually means suffer, i.e. the passion of the Christ, like, for what you're willing to suffer. So, I think that if we reframe passion to, what are you willing to, like, really go through the trenches on, like, that's just how convicted you are about it, that's what you should focus on. Not the thing that, like, lights you up in the morning, but the thing that keeps you up at night.
[00:33:26] Mike: I just had, like, a lightbulb and epiphany to this idea about passion and suffering, because speaking of being invulnerable, and I'm very open about this story, too, as well… and Marcus has known me for a while. John, you're getting to know me. And so, you know, through my social media, it looks like I'm living the life, right? And I am. I want to be very clear.
[00:33:46] Marcus: Flex, flex, flex, flex, flex, flex, flex, flex.
[00:33:50] Mike: I am. I am having a ball. But suffering in order to get to where I am right now, it took me living on dollar slices of pizza. You know, I did lecture or guest-lectured or did speaking engagements, but I did it for free. You know what I mean? I couldn't get people to pay me for nothing. You know, everyone now is multi-hyphenate. Everyone now says they're intersectional in politics and pop culture, but I did it first. Visit TED Talk to prove it.
[00:34:15] Marcus: Flex, flex, flex, flex, flex, flex.
[00:34:17] Mike: But Marcus, literally, and John, Marcus knows this. I would get these same questions. One, what is this intersection of politics and pop culture? What is that? Is that a job? Can you find work with that? And then the most disrespectful, audacious question is, did you get paid for that? Do you get paid for that? And then, how much do you get paid for that?
And so, for me, I had to suffer, right, and stick with it and stay the course, had people laughing at me, joking behind my back, talking about me, I'm crazy, I need to get a real job, I need to do some real things, I need to be buying a house right now, back in the day, right? All these things, but I stayed the course. And what you're saying, Marcus, in this analogy, I suffered, right, but in suffering for the things that just got me out of bed every morning has led me to now to have this career where I have this agency to help other people have agencies. So, that is really the heart of that. It's beautiful, Marcus. I just had to highlight that.
[00:35:15] Marcus: Amen. Amen. Okay, last question for you. What is the advice you'd give to future leaders who are looking to disrupt their career, disrupt their industry, or even disrupt the industry that you're in? What advice would you give them?
[00:35:35] Mike: Be a studier of your industry. I think that people want to jump in to be a disruptor but don't know who they are in relationship to that sector, right? Because not everyone who is a lawyer is the exact same lawyer, right?
[00:35:53] Marcus: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:53] Mike: There's different types of lawyers. There's corporate law. There's acquisitions. There's defense. There's litigators. But then they work in different sectors. You want to go big law firm, mid-size. You have a small firm. Do you want to do pro bono work? Do you want to be a public defender, right? And then, who do you show up for? What clients do you take on, right?
So, this is a really easy example to say, who are you? Find out who you are in this space. Then, once you find out who you are in this relationship, be a studier of this. It will be really hard for someone to ask me a political question that I'm just not aware of. It would be really hard for someone to ask me a cultural question that I just couldn't answer. And that's because I get up in the morning, researching, researching, researching, researching, reading, reading, reading, reading, learning, learning, learning, learning, learning, watching, watching, watching, watching, watching, right?
And so, that, for me, allows me the confidence to go out on the shows, on the television, and this and that, knowing I'm so well-prepared, that it'll be hard to stump me. And I think that's what helps me become a disruptor, is because I'm so well-prepared. But so many often, people just want to jump in and be disruptive for disruptor's sake and say they're disruptor and have a disruptor hashtag, and then have a t-shirt, have a great website, right?
[00:37:09] Marcus: Just to, like, co-sign everything you just said, you know, I feel like the thing that has been, like, one of the cheat codes in my career is just to stay in student posture, always. Like, I always find myself being the dumbest person in the room. And I like that because I always learn. I mean, it’s a reason why my business partner is you. I learned from you. And my academic partner is John. I learned from John, right? This room is no different than any other room. I'm always the dumbest person. That way, I'm always learning. It's the way you keep the knife sharp — you got to stay in student posture.
[00:37:45] Mike: Yeah.
[00:37:46] Marcus: Put a bonus for us, John. What's your calculus on this?
[00:37:48] John: You know, we don't like to be too reductionist because people are so, so nuanced. But for the podcast, for Breaking Schemas, we want to boil it down to a single lesson. I think the lesson, really, today with Mike was about agency, right?
[00:38:04] Marcus: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:05] John: Agency. But I loved the last point, which was, you can have agency, but if you're not an expert in the field in which you’re trying to disrupt, the agency means nothing. So, Mike, just brilliant insight there. Learning mode, constantly being a student, so that you can be an expert, thereby, allowing you to exercise your agency.
[00:38:31] Marcus: So well said, John. Mike, thank you so very much, brother. I know we could have talked for hours and hours on end, but just super grateful, so proud of all you've accomplished. You make us all proud to be Michigan Wolverines, man. So, thank you so very much.
[00:38:44] Mike: Man, thank you both, Marcus and John, for having me.
[00:38:47] Marcus: Breaking Schemas is a Michigan Ross podcast, powered by the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative and produced by University FM. Go blue!