Who says prioritizing fun in your career isn’t a smart move? Marketing mogul Karima McDaniel has worked with every kind of beauty product under the sun. She made all the right moves to climb ladders at major companies and build a successful career. But at the top, she found herself wanting more. She wanted to find a job that aligned with her values, and on top of that – she wanted to have fun at work. That’s how Karima ended up in a meeting with actress Tia Mowry who was starting a hair care line centered around textured and naturally curly hair. Now the president of 4U by Tia, Karima joins Breaking Schemas host Marcus Collins to chat about disrupting the beauty industry, making an impact for women of color, and why having fun at work should be prioritized. *Breaking Schemas is a production of the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative at Michigan Ross and is produced by University FM.* Episode Quotes: In finding an organization, figure out where your style is celebrated 23:58: I remember having this conversation with myself: where everybody likes me, but I'm no one's favorite. And I think that's a dangerous place to be in an organization because that means you don't have the right sponsorship. And so if somebody has to go out on a limb, is it going to be for you? And if you can't identify who those people are, it's probably time to either go build those relationships or leave because it's going to slow you down in your progress. Embrace the art of self-promotion 27:52: Learning and not shying away from the art of self-promotion—that's not something that is intuitive to me. Like, I feel like it's kind of icky to do it. You hate when other people do it too much, but it is a really valuable skill in figuring out how to do it in the right way. Because I think you'll spend a lot of your early career having your ideas taken from you, or other people get credit because you're not actively claiming credit for the things that you're doing. And so, how do you do that in a way that feels authentic to you and not think of it as a bad thing? And it took me a while to figure that piece out. You have to be your own cheerleader 29:23: There's like that moment when you realize you're sitting in a room; at some point, you're going to realize, "No one actually knows more than me." Again, it's like I hit you at a moment when you're like, "I actually probably know more than most people in this room." Like, what have I been waiting for? And even, I don't know when that starts, but it's like, "Oh, I wish, I wish everybody could un-teach themselves that," as they're kind of starting their careers. Like your perspective is your perspective, and it's valuable. And people do not know more than you. They're just more confident in how they express their ideas. Show Links: 4U by Tia Karima McDaniel LinkedIn
Who says prioritizing fun in your career isn’t a smart move?
Marketing mogul Karima McDaniel has worked with every kind of beauty product under the sun. She made all the right moves to climb ladders at major companies and build a successful career. But at the top, she found herself wanting more. She wanted to find a job that aligned with her values, and on top of that – she wanted to have fun at work. That’s how Karima ended up in a meeting with actress Tia Mowry who was starting a hair care line centered around textured and naturally curly hair.
Now the president of 4U by Tia, Karima joins Breaking Schemas host Marcus Collins to chat about disrupting the beauty industry, making an impact for women of color, and why having fun at work should be prioritized.
*Breaking Schemas is a production of the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative at Michigan Ross and is produced by University FM.*
In finding an organization, figure out where your style is celebrated
23:58: I remember having this conversation with myself: where everybody likes me, but I'm no one's favorite. And I think that's a dangerous place to be in an organization because that means you don't have the right sponsorship. And so if somebody has to go out on a limb, is it going to be for you? And if you can't identify who those people are, it's probably time to either go build those relationships or leave because it's going to slow you down in your progress.
Embrace the art of self-promotion
27:52: Learning and not shying away from the art of self-promotion—that's not something that is intuitive to me. Like, I feel like it's kind of icky to do it. You hate when other people do it too much, but it is a really valuable skill in figuring out how to do it in the right way. Because I think you'll spend a lot of your early career having your ideas taken from you, or other people get credit because you're not actively claiming credit for the things that you're doing. And so, how do you do that in a way that feels authentic to you and not think of it as a bad thing? And it took me a while to figure that piece out.
You have to be your own cheerleader
29:23: There's like that moment when you realize you're sitting in a room; at some point, you're going to realize, "No one actually knows more than me." Again, it's like I hit you at a moment when you're like, "I actually probably know more than most people in this room." Like, what have I been waiting for? And even, I don't know when that starts, but it's like, "Oh, I wish, I wish everybody could un-teach themselves that," as they're kind of starting their careers. Like your perspective is your perspective, and it's valuable. And people do not know more than you. They're just more confident in how they express their ideas.
(Transcripts may contain a few typographical errors due to audio quality during the podcast recording.)
[00:00:00] Marcus: Welcome to Breaking Schemas, a podcast that explores the dynamic changes of contemporary business through the lenses of the disruptors who have not only navigated the changes but have also rewritten the rules of the game.
We'll be sitting down with business leaders across a wide spectrum of industries to discuss their victories, their failures, and the biggest lessons they've experienced throughout their career to prepare tomorrow's leaders, that's you, for an ever-changing marketplace.
I'm Marcus Collins, marketing professor here at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan. I'll be your host, along with my co-conspirator, Professor John Branch. Now, let's get into it. Welcome back to another episode of Breaking Schemas.
We have with us another leader at best because that's just what we do around here. Please help me welcome to the podcast, Karima McDaniel, president of 4U by Tia. Karima, welcome to the podcast. How are you, my friend?
[00:01:02] Karima: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here and so nice to join you. I feel like it's been nice to watch you, kind of, in your career evolution as well. So, congrats to you, too.
[00:01:11] Marcus: You know what? I am just trying to keep up with you because you're out, you're out here doing it. You're really out here doing it. And it's awesome to see, I mean, it's, like, it's one of those things where, like, I'm not surprised to see it, but... or just part of you is just, like, proud, that's what the word is, just proud-
[00:01:27] Karima: Oh.
[00:01:27] Marcus: ... of all the stuff that you've achieved. That's great. All right. So, like, just to get everyone on the same page, just to, kind of, level set here. You are the president of 4U by Tia. What is 4U by Tia? Describe your work and what makes it meaningful for you.
[00:01:43] Karima: 4U by Tia is a science-based, clean, clinically proven hair care line that was founded by actress Tia Mowry. The whole idea of the line is centered around textured, naturally curly hair. So, she started this line with the intention of how do you make someone who's on this, like, sort of, naturally curly hair journey simpler with simple, clean, affordable solutions. And so, we are a brand-new brand. We've launched last year.
It's been a crazy year, but we have eight SKUs, actually nine. Our next one is just launching now. So, we are sold right now exclusively in Walmart. The whole premise of the line is to be affordable for your whole family. But it's been a real full-circle moment for me, you know, as I've had a career in beauty and branding for, you know, well, almost two decades but this is my first time in a president role.
So, it's been really exciting being the one to really build out the strategic vision for the brand, everything from marketing, but then also making sure that there's product on shelf, that we have the right partners, and really seeing the long-term vision and strategy for the brand working with Tia. So, it's been fun.
[00:02:48] Marcus: So, walk us there. Get us there. So, you and I, we went to school together-
[00:02:52] Karima: Yes.
[00:02:53] Marcus: ... during our MBA program. You were a marketer like me. You focused on brand, went into beauty in the CPG world, but now, you're a president. How does that happen? How'd you get here? Like, get us up to speed. How did you go from brand marketer to president of a company? And why is it so important that you're at this company acting in the role you are?
[00:03:17] Karima: I don't know that it was an intentional... Like, I've never desired to be a brand president. I never probably even thought about it. I think, in my core, I'm a marketer. Like, that is what... I'm a brand builder. I love products. I love beauty. So, that was a really a natural fit for me.
But as I've, kind of, bounced through the beauty industry, I've worked on probably every type of product that touches your body, that you ingest. Like, everything beauty and personal care, I've probably done it in some form. And, you know, after, I was, like, launching so many products, building so many brands. And so, I was, kind of, just reflecting to myself.
I had taken a few different steps of trying new things, but for me, when this role came up, it was a really interesting one because I think you get to your point as a marketer when people say, "Do you want to, you know, continue down the path of, like, a CMO, or do you want to move into, like, a CEO track?"
And honestly, even for myself, I still have no idea, but this was a great opportunity for me to, like, really take all of the skills that I had learned. Like, I know how to build a brand. I know how to build a product. I've had exposure in working with, you know, all of my operations partners and finance partners. I've had exposure in all these areas. How can I pull all of that learning together and have a go at it?
And so, it's been a great learning experience for me, but it's also felt very familiar because it's not foreign. Like, it's building on all of the skills that I've been building this whole time. But now, you just have, like, you know, obviously, a lot more pressure and responsibility to deliver it. Everything's, kind of, sitting on you, but that's also really motivating.
[00:04:44] Marcus: How did you end up getting on Tia's radar? And just for those who know, like, she's, sort of, downplayed, you know. She's an actress, you know. She and her twin sister, they're child actresses.
[00:04:55] Karima: Yes.
[00:04:56] Marcus: Little brother, also. You know, the, the show, sister, sister, never know how much I've missed you.
Like, that was a joy-
[00:05:02] Karima: Yeah.
[00:05:02] Marcus: ... right? That's her. And they are cultural icons, truly. How did you find yourself on her radar in her orbit? And what was it about your experience and the, the way you guys hit it off that she saw you as this role that you hadn't even thought about yourself being in?
[00:05:21] Karima: Well, yeah, she has definitely had a career that has, like, has been decades. I think Sister, Sister is coming up on its 30th year this year. So, she has-
[00:05:28] Marcus: Oh, my God.
[00:05:29] Karima: ... been able to kind of... It's crazy, right? Like, you grew up with her. And now, like, new generations are growing up with her, but she's reinvented herself and her career so many times and has really had longevity and a really challenging business. The way I got connected to her was, kind of, roundabout. I think this is just lesson in just, kind of, staying open. When I got in touch with her, I was actually on a sabbatical.
So, I had just come out of a really big, what I thought was my dream job, which turned out not to be, with, like, leading a really big global marketing organization. Like, I took on a new role in a pandemic during this really big job that had burnt me out. And so, I had decided I was taking a year off, but about four months into that, I just started saying, like, "Let me just see what else... what I think I want to do. I don't know what I want to do. I'm going to try to figure it out."
And a mentor of mine had called me and said, "I think there's a role that you might be a good fit for." It wasn't actually this role, but the person who was recruiting for this role was the same person. And she's, like, "I think you'd actually..." She kept trying to redirect me to this role. And she's like, "I think you would be great in this president role." And I was, like, "No. You know, I'm a marketer. I want to do marketing. I want to be a CMO."
And she kept saying, like, "I really think you'd be a good fit for this role." But, you know, working with a founder-led brand can be really exciting, but it has to be a good fit, especially if you're in a, a really strong leadership role. So, I decided to take a meeting with Tia and her team. And we just, like, vibed immediately.
Like, there's just been, you know, usually, when you have those moments in your career when things fit, it just there's such a natural ease to it. And so, our conversation just really flowed. We were so aligned in vision. Like, I could feel her passion for this brand. And, you know, especially when you're working with a founder and a celebrity founder, making sure that they are, like, invested in not only their name, but their time is really important.
[00:07:12] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:07:12] Karima: And she was just, like, "I will do whatever. I want to be a part of this brand. I want to build this together." And so, we just really connected on that. I really believed in her mission, you know. We both have small children.
And, you know, going through, you know, my own haircare journey myself and, like, watching my kids go through theirs, this idea of how do I help them celebrate themselves and really step into who they are and use my experience in beauty, you know, in a personal passion area for me? So, this is, like, a great intersection of professional accomplishment and personal passion.
That, honestly, just seemed, like, fun. Like, my goal at the time was how do I get back to what I think is fun? Like, I think, sometimes, these really big roles can be interesting, or they can, like, check all of the achievement boxes, but it can become, not all roles, but it can become more, like, process driven. And I'm, like, merging teams and culture, but it's not like... I'm a brand builder. And that's what I love to do. And so-
[00:08:06] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:08:06] Karima: ... I was really just looking for something that felt fun and felt easy and gave me the opportunity to build the team I want to, you know, surround myself in the day to day with the people that I want to work with. And that was really this.
[00:08:20] Marcus: So, what was on the box for you? Like, what was checking the box? What was the checklist for you? Like, "These are the things that I want to accomplish in my career as a brand builder." And for this not to be on that list, what was on the list?
[00:08:33] Karima: I think it's, kind of, changed over time. And I think, sometimes, I've found myself I get wrapped up in the progression of career, right? So, you're, like, "Okay. I'm at this level. I want to get to the next level." And you, kind of, can lose sight of, "Well, does that make me happy? Is it aligned with the rest of my life?"
And I think coming out of my previous role, which was, like, I checked all the success boxes of accomplishment and title and, like, big team and all of those things, it was, kind of, out of balance with the rest of my life. Like, it just took on a life of its own and-
[00:09:05] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:09:05] Karima: ... took me away from the other parts of my life that I'm passionate about. And what was important for me was I knew that I had just gone through an organization that had a lot of mergers and acquisitions. And I knew that I wanted to build out a team and decide who was going to be on that team and what skills I was looking for.
I also knew that I wanted to do something that just aligned with my passions and something that I felt really good about and just really believed in the story and something that I just felt, like, excited to talk about to other people. And so, you know, I love this space. I can talk about it all day.
I'm, kind of, at this stage in my life, like, I just want to enjoy work. Like, work, you spend a lot of time doing it. Like, how do you make it fun? And so, it's a very simple list, but that was, like, I was just in the search of for fun and really finding that again for myself.
[00:09:51] Marcus: I can see that you're talking to a headhunter, and you're, like, "What are you looking for your career? Fun?"
[00:09:56] Karima: It sounds crazy. You're, like, "I don't really know."
[00:09:59] Marcus: "I want a good time."
[00:10:01] Karima: I know they probably think, like, "Who is this girl? Like, why does she think she deserves to have all this fun?" But, you know, you got to be true to yourself and what's going to make you happy. And the right people will find you.
[00:10:11] Marcus: I love the language you just said. Like, why does she think she deserves to have fun?
[00:10:18] Karima: Yes.
[00:10:18] Marcus: And I think that's an interesting thing because, like, we typically think about, like, our careers as being a list of trade-offs-
[00:10:27] Karima: Yes.
[00:10:27] Marcus: ... to get to some exchange. And our hope, the prayer, Inshallah, is that what's on the other side of all those trade-offs is a thing that I've always wanted, right? So, like-
[00:10:38] Karima: Yes.
[00:10:38] Marcus: ... I'll set aside time with my family, I'll set aside my enjoyment, I'll set aside my mental well-being, my physical well-being, all in hopes that these things that I invest today will be this massive pay-off at the end, not to say that this was your experience, but you get the big job. You got the big title. You're doing all the things. You're a leader. And you go, "Oh, man. This isn't the thing. This isn't it."
[00:11:04] Karima: Yes. That's where I think your priorities shift over time, too. And I think one of the things I forgot on that list was what I've learned over time, which I, kind of, wish I had learned sooner, was also how do I not have to, like, shift who I am to fit into an environment? So, how can I just be myself and, you know, not have to, kind of, pretend in the environments that I'm in?
And that's, like, what I'm focused on now. And so, it is interesting how all of that shifts over time. And you have to make sure that those sacrifices are worth it. And so, at some point, for me, I was realizing, like, I'm putting a lot of effort into something that I'm not feeling great about or it's not making me feel as fulfilled as it should.
[00:11:42] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:11:42] Karima: And I think, you know, I have two small kids and the beauty of them is they're very direct. And so, I remember having a conversation with my daughter once. And, you know, and her unfiltered nature made a comment about, "I don't want to have your kind of job. Like, you work way too much," or something crazy. And I felt so bad about that. And I was, like, "Well, what, what a great mirror for myself of the example that I'm giving to her.
Like, you don't want to be in this role," which is not the example that I want to give. And so, now, at least I can say if I'm working hard, it's something that I'm excited about. And we can share that together. And, like, I'm able to bring my full self and, like, to show up differently in the environment, both professionally and as I turn that professional life off into my personal life.
[00:12:23] Marcus: Yeah. What I keep hearing here, I keep hearing this theme coming through here, this idea of, like, of alignment.
[00:12:29] Karima: Yes.
[00:12:30] Marcus: You know, you said, like, you know, things were out of balance-
[00:12:32] Karima: Yes.
[00:12:32] Marcus: ... that you want alignment. I want alignment with my enjoyment. I want to have fun. I want alignment with, like, things that you care about, that you're passionate about, not just beauty, but particularly, hair, with regards to an underestimated group of people, like-
[00:12:48] Karima: Yeah.
[00:12:48] Marcus: ... people of color, Black people, right? And, like, even as you refer to, like, your hair journey, this isn't just, sort of, your aesthetic.
[00:12:54] Karima: Yeah.
[00:12:55] Marcus: This is a part of your identity, and the way in which your identity is negotiated and constructed when you're in the workplace, when you're in social forums, and the like. So, I feel like, you know, when we talk a lot about disruption on this podcast, clearly, but this idea of, like, disruption through alignment that you have curated your career and where you are right now is that, "I can have fun. I can be excited about what I do. I could be this killer job-"
[00:13:23] Karima: Yeah.
[00:13:23] Marcus: "... like, working with a celebrity founder and actually having impact in the world and, and have the balance that I want with my life, my children, my partner," and everything that you navigate. Like, I think that that's a big thing because we typically feel like we can't have it all, but it sounds to me that you have found a place where you have a lot of it.
[00:13:47] Karima: I've gotten here. It's definitely been a journey where I've had to, sort of, seek that out. And I think it is always a goal. So, everything's not always in perfect balance, but at least I know what those trade-offs are. And I can feel good about what they are.
But, yeah, but I think everybody, kind of, deserves to get to that place where you are intentionally putting the pieces of your life together. And, you know, work, while it is really meaningful and important, it's just a part of who you are. And so, always being that, like, constant reminder to myself of I'm not just my job. And so, like, how do I make sure that this isn't the only thing that defines me?
[00:14:23] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:14:24] Karima: And I think just to the point of this space that has been, kind of, underrepresented, what's fascinating about this textured hair space is when you... you know, marketers love, like, emotional connection, right?
And so, you're always looking for, like, those insights and how do you emotionally connect with consumers, but the nice thing about this is, in the textured hair space, when you talk to people about their hair journey, whatever that is, people are so willing to share with you about their experiences, about what the impact their hair has had, particularly, I would say, like, Black women, the impact that their hair has had on either decisions that they've made or, you know, how they show up at work-
[00:15:01] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:15:02] Karima: ... or just helping them step into themselves. And so, there's so much richness there in being able to, one, deliver solutions that help make that easier so that, you know, my daughter doesn't have the same experience that I might have had-
[00:15:14] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:15:15] Karima: ... but then also just in hearing, you know, the stories of, like, the consumers that you're connecting with and helping them to solve their problems, like, it just, as a marketer, is such a rich emotional space to be able to build around and to be able to build community and connection around a brand.
[00:15:31] Marcus: That's incredible. It's absolutely incredible. So, it sounds to me that you have found a way to disrupt your career-
[00:15:38] Karima: Yes, basically. Yeah.
[00:15:40] Marcus: ... and have, you know, the alignment, that is satisfactory for you.
[00:15:45] Karima: Yeah.
[00:15:45] Marcus: So, as you think about your category, what are some of the disruptive things that are happening in the haircare space, particularly the textured haircare space, beauty in general? Like, what are the biggest disruptions that are afoot the industry?
[00:15:58] Karima: Yeah. I think one of the things that's really exciting in both haircare but then also beauty overall is there's so many new brands. And I think that that's really exciting. Like, I have lots of friends who have started their own brands. And, like, it's just nice to be able to see people see a need and create a brand. And so, I love that there's so many smaller brands starting.
And, you know, especially, like, in this celebrity haircare space, and there's other celebrity haircare brands, we get this question a lot of just... Like, well, you know, there's a pattern that exists and, like, all of these things, but there's enough space for everybody. Like, you don't get that question a lot of times when I've worked in other categories-
[00:16:36] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:16:36] Karima: ... that might be, you know, more... I want to say general market, but just more serving of a broader audience. You don't get that same question of, like, "Oh, not another of this," but for some reason, in certain spaces, it feels like there's a cap on how many people can play in that area. And that's just not true. And so, it's actually really exciting, I think, to see some of the newer brands.
I mean, we're still very new, but it's nice to see some of our, you know, sister brands that are started by, you know, either just influencers or other people that just see needs and are trying to solve it in their own way. And I think, you know, everyone has different propositions.
They have really different ways of marketing and connecting with their consumers. And it's, really exciting to watch. But you, kind of, see that across beauty. And you see, like, still even in haircare, but also in, in skincare, you see this, you know, this introduction of newer demographics and, really trying to meet those needs.
And having worked in some bigger companies where I've always, sort of, been on, like, special projects on how do you connect with, you know, different audiences or more, you know, diverse audiences, like, everyone is trying to do this, but it's so nice to see a lot of that being homegrown and really consumers coming up with solutions for themselves.
[00:17:46] Marcus: Yeah. The way you framed that, it is, to me, part-and-parcel to what makes a good marketer in that you look at more competition, like, economically speaking, more competition in the marketplace. However, you see that as more opportunities to serve the people.
[00:18:07] Karima: Yes.
[00:18:07] Marcus: So, what would normally be, sort of, folks potentially eating your lunch, you're, like, "No. We're giving more options to the people, underserved, underestimated group of people-"
[00:18:18] Karima: Yes.
[00:18:18] Marcus: "... that because of the hegemonic expectations and standards, that there can only be a few of us because we're a small market as they think."
[00:18:28] Karima: Yep.
[00:18:28] Marcus: They as that, sort of, non-descript they, as one would think. But you see other people in the market and go, "There's just more opportunities to serve." And as a result, as you all, as a brand, 4U by Tia as a brand, it's, like, "So, now, we have to, like, level up the way we serve-"
[00:18:45] Karima: Yes.
[00:18:45] Marcus: ... which ultimately serves the people. And, like, that's how marketers should be thinking.
[00:18:50] Karima: Yep, I totally agree. And I think if you're doing your job right, like, that should push you and encourage you, or if you're seeing, like, a lot of innovation in other brands, like, it really pushes you to think, like, "How do I disrupt even more? How do I push the boundaries of what we're saying or selling in a bigger way." And so, I think it is motivating. And I think, you know, good ideas come from everywhere. And there's lots of great products in innovation that's happening across brands.
[00:19:17] Marcus: So, you all are in Walmart. You say, you got a nine SKUs right now.
[00:19:21] Karima: Yep. So, we launched at Walmart exclusively, but what's interesting about this brand is, so we launched last year in February. We had a partner, kind of, in helping us execute that launch. That partner ended up going bankrupt. So, part of that was also finding a new partner at the end of the year. So, I've launched in transition the brand in one year, but we've been at Walmart the whole time. So, you know, they've been a great partner for us.
Part of the mission is around affordability and accessibility. We will start expanding into other retailers this year, which is exciting, but you can always find us at Walmart for now. But we have eight course SKUs. It's intended to be a line that is about creating simple solutions.
So, you don't have to go deep into research to understand which products are right for you, but it's a simple curated line that's meant to work across curl types so that you don't have to be a hair expert to figure out what works for you.
[00:20:17] Marcus: Yeah, that's super important. I mean, my eldest, Georgia, she has curly hair, really, really curly hair. And, like, her hair care routine, like, a cocktail of a million different products. Like-
[00:20:28] Karima: Yes.
[00:20:29] Marcus: ... trying to find the right, you know, the right bit of this with that leave-in conditioner, and that shampoo, and that whatever, and that spray is, like, it is a complicated, cumbersome experience.
[00:20:41] Karima: It is.
[00:20:42] Marcus: And for there to be not only focus on what those product benefits could be, but also ensuring that they're democratized, I think that that's important.
[00:20:52] Karima: Part of the inspiration for this brand, we were doing a lot of the consumer research, is people have cabinets full of, like, their product graveyard, right? It's, like, things-
[00:20:59] Marcus: That's right.
[00:20:59] Karima: ... that they've tried. And it's so hard to figure out what's going to work for you. And it's, like, how do you make that simpler? That's a very expensive habit, too, especially if you have a whole family. You don't want to have to buy, you know, 20 products for three people.
[00:21:13] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:21:14] Karima: Like, how do you make that a little bit easier? And so, that's really is the mission of the line is really coming up with, you know, products that work across curl types that are proven to work, products that are really clean, like, truly clean, like, we work with the best biochemist in clean science, and that are affordable in price. And so, that combination is where we, I think, are different in the market.
[00:21:34] Marcus: Karima, you are truly a disruptor. Disrupting your category, disrupting your career, certainly was no accident that you've gotten where you've gotten. Tell me a little bit about, like, some of the normal advice that is given to marketers who are trying to level up in their career, right? Like, I know, like, you originally were, you know, with big CPG companies.
[00:21:55] Karima: Yep.
[00:21:56] Marcus: Now, you're on the entrepreneurial side. What's the advice that are normally given? If, like, I want to get the CMO role or I want to go the CEO track, as you mentioned, like, what's the advice that's normally given?
[00:22:06] Karima: Yeah. I think the advice that I wish was given to me would probably be two things. I think one is really figure out where your style is celebrated because I think, especially with, you know, no knock on, like, larger organizations, but it can be a little bit more one-dimensional in terms of, like, who gets success in an organization. And so, there tends to be a leadership type or style. And sometimes, that, that is your style. And sometimes, it's not.
And I think, for me, there's moments in my career where I might have stayed at a career too long, trying to fit into the style that gets promoted, and all of those things. And I've always done really well. I'm always the person people want on their team, but a lot of time, I remember having this conversation with myself where everybody likes me, but I'm no one's favorite.
And I think that's, like, kind of, a dangerous place to be in an organization because that means you don't have the right sponsorship. And so, if somebody has to go out on a limb, is it going to be for you? And if you can't identify who those people are, it's probably time to go to either go build those relationships or to leave, because it's going to slow you down in your progress.
And then the other piece of advice that I got, and I think is so smart is, you know, a lot of times, we spend time correcting things that we might not be good at. So, you're always trying to, like, improve in areas.
And I had a manager once just tell me, like, you know, "As long as it's not a deficit, just focus on what you're good at and what you want to be known for. And spend your time building out that skill because that's your calling card. Like, you want, Karima is known for what? Decide what that is. Build that out. And tell people what it is so that they can remember you when they're trying to..."
You know, for me, if it's insights or whatever it is, that they were, like, "Hey, Karima is good at insights." Whether that's true or not true, if I've been practicing that skill and telling people about it, they will remember me when that conversation comes up.
[00:23:57] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:23:57] Karima: And I thought that was really good advice of just figure out what you're good at and focus on building that out in a bigger way because that's where you're going to really excel.
[00:24:04] Marcus: Everybody likes you, but you're no one's favorite. That is a bar. Good night. I mean, like, how many times have people been there? They're, like, "Oh, everybody loves so and so."
[00:24:14] Karima: Yeah. You're, like, "I'm doing a great job. I'm getting great performance reviews, but I'm not excelling in this organization. And why is that?"
[00:24:20] Marcus: That's right.
[00:24:20] Karima: Yeah.
[00:24:21] Marcus: that's how you get stagnant. It's, like, "Oh, you know, she's fine. She's great. No need to move her. She's not ready to move up. We don't want to lose her. So, just, kind of, keep her right there." Oh, that is...
[00:24:30] Karima: Or you get, like, expanded scope, which, for me, has been very valuable. So, you get lots of-
[00:24:35] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:24:35] Karima: ... new opportunities that don't, one, promote you in title or give you more-
[00:24:40] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:24:40] Karima: ... you know, a raise or more money, but you get all of these, like, extra projects to keep you growing, but you're not progressing in the organization in terms of, like, responsibility and leadership.
[00:24:52] Marcus: Yeah. That is the recipe for career purgatory-
[00:24:56] Karima: Yes.
[00:24:56] Marcus: ... for sure.
[00:24:57] Karima: Yes.
[00:24:58] Marcus: Okay. I got one last question for you, Karima, before we let you go do your president thing, because you are a president. Madam president. If you could go back and talk to 20-something-year-old Karima, fresh out of the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan, MBA graduate, what advice would you give that Karima so that she might be able to disrupt her career through alignment, focusing on alignment, faster and perhaps be a little bit ahead of where you are right now?
[00:25:30] Karima: Oh, yeah. I would probably give myself two pieces of advice. I think, you know, the business school experience is an interesting one because I think you get wrapped up in, like, so much of, like, the push of school.
I think it would probably be just making sure that I'm, like, attuned with what I actually want and where my goals are because I think there's a lot of pressures around you to go in certain directions. And it's, like, only it's your self-created pressure just because you see everyone else doing it-
[00:25:55] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:25:55] Karima: ... but I think, usually, you know, you have a sense of what you want to do and just staying focused on that. And then I think the other as I started my career would be really allowing myself or pushing myself to be more comfortable in my knowledge and, like, not feeling like people always knew more than I did.
Because I think I waited for a lot of time to feel like, well, you know, they're in this position, they know more than me, or waiting for someone to, like, give you that permission, but I think you give that permission to yourself because, you know, you're there for a reason and really stepping into that earlier.
So, three things, actually. And the other would be really learning and not shying away from the art of self-promotion. You know, that's not something that is intuitive to me. Like, I feel like it's, kind of, feels, like, icky to do it.
You hate when other people are, like, do it too much, but it is a really valuable skill in figuring out how to do it in the right way because I think you'll spend a lot of your early career having your ideas taken from you or, like, other people get credit because you're not actively claiming credit for the things that you're doing.
And so, how do you do that in a way that feels authentic to you and not thinking of it as a bad thing? And I think it took me a while to figure that piece out. So, speaking up more, staying focused, and then really figuring out a way to celebrate the things and the accomplishments that I had.
[00:27:14] Marcus: Those are the biggest facts. I mean, good night. I mean, I think, even that notion, I think, when I came out of school, I felt like if I just put my head down and do the work, then everyone will acknowledge me and give me the flowers. They don't work like that. No.
[00:27:27] Karima: No.
[00:27:28] Marcus: If you're not going to promote you, why expect someone else to do that for you? Like, it doesn't work that way.
[00:27:32] Karima: No.
[00:27:32] Marcus: And I remember, being in business school, feeling like the dumbest person-
[00:27:36] Karima: Oh, yes.
[00:27:36] Marcus: ... in school.
[00:27:38] Karima: Yes.
[00:27:39] Marcus: Dumbest person in school, totally. And it's, like, you doubt yourself. Like, you are your worst enemy.
[00:27:45] Karima: Yes.
[00:27:45] Marcus: Like, you got to be your biggest cheerleader, your best friend. Like, you got to love you-
[00:27:50] Karima: Yes.
[00:27:50] Marcus: ... so that you show up just, like, everyone else does because you wouldn't be there if you weren't good enough.
[00:27:56] Karima: Yeah. And there's, like, that moment when you realize... like, sitting in a room, at some point, you're going to realize, like, "No one actually knows more than me." Again, it's like, it will hit you at a moment when you're like, "I actually probably know more than most people in this room. Like, what have I been waiting for?"
[00:28:10] Marcus: That's right.
[00:28:10] Karima: And even, yeah, I don't know when that starts, but it's, like, "Oh, I wish, everybody could un-teach themselves that as they're, kind of, like, starting their careers." Like, your perspective is your perspective. And it's valuable. And people do not know more than you. They're just more confident in how they express their ideas.
[00:28:26] Marcus: Amen. Karima, thank you so very much for sharing your brilliance.
[00:28:31] Karima: Thank you. This has been so much fun.
[00:28:33] Marcus: We're so grateful for you, so unbelievably proud of you. You got to come back to campus bless us with some more of your greatness.
[00:28:41] Karima: Oh, I would love to. It's been too long.
[00:28:42] Marcus: Indeed. We'll be very honored to have you. And for everyone joining us, thank you for being with us for another episode of Breaking Schemas. We will see you next time. Go blue.
[00:28:52] Karima: Yes. Go blue.
[00:28:54] Marcus: Breaking Schemas is a Michigan Ross Podcast, powered by the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative, and produced by University FM. Go, Blue!