The Japanese phrase, ikigai, refers to one’s reason to live. Devon Leahy, the global head of sustainability at Ralph Lauren, found her ikigai at a young age on the ski slopes of Vermont: the outdoors and environmental issues. Devon took that passion, merged it with a business degree from Michigan Ross, and began crafting what these corporate sustainability roles could look like for major companies like Walmart and eventually Ralph Lauren. Breaking Schemas hosts Marcus Collins and John Branch sit down with Devon to discuss what a global head of sustainability does, why sustainability needs to be embedded in the fabric of the corporation and not just a PR campaign, and what the future holds for sustainability in the fashion industry. *Breaking Schemas is a production of the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative at Michigan Ross and is produced by University FM.* Episode Quotes: How Devon’s childhood in vermont shaped her passion for the sustainability 05:04: I really came into the corporate world and into business with a background and passion for environmental issues. I grew up in northern Vermont. I was a skier. I spent a lot of time outdoors. I started asking my parents why we were seeing forests degraded by what at the time was acid rain that I could see from the ski lift in my little hometown in the northern part of Vermont. And it was those moments, those sort of pivotal experiences, that became touchstones in my career. Communicating impact in the sustainability space 13:29: As our disclosures of environmental and social data become very looked at the same way as our financial disclosures, we have to be very mindful of how we communicate our impact, what numbers we use, what KPIs. And so it's this balancing within the guardrails, like how we still meet and deliver or exceed our stakeholders expectations and continue to find ways that this work creates value. Follow what your internal compass tells you 18:34: I think it's important to talk to outside voices that know you and also give you good advice. But, at the end of the day, you really have to follow what your internal compass tells you. Show Links: Devon Leahy on LinkedIn
The Japanese phrase, ikigai, refers to one’s reason to live. Devon Leahy, the global head of sustainability at Ralph Lauren, found her ikigai at a young age on the ski slopes of Vermont: the outdoors and environmental issues.
Devon took that passion, merged it with a business degree from Michigan Ross, and began crafting what these corporate sustainability roles could look like for major companies like Walmart and eventually Ralph Lauren.
Breaking Schemas hosts Marcus Collins and John Branch sit down with Devon to discuss what a global head of sustainability does, why sustainability needs to be embedded in the fabric of the corporation and not just a PR campaign, and what the future holds for sustainability in the fashion industry.
*Breaking Schemas is a production of the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative at Michigan Ross and is produced by University FM.*
How Devon’s childhood in Vermont shaped her passion for the sustainability
05:04: I really came into the corporate world and into business with a background and passion for environmental issues. I grew up in northern Vermont. I was a skier. I spent a lot of time outdoors. I started asking my parents why we were seeing forests degraded by what at the time was acid rain that I could see from the ski lift in my little hometown in the northern part of Vermont. And it was those moments, those sort of pivotal experiences, that became touchstones in my career.
Communicating impact in the sustainability space
13:29: As our disclosures of environmental and social data become very looked at the same way as our financial disclosures, we have to be very mindful of how we communicate our impact, what numbers we use, what KPIs. And so it's this balancing within the guardrails, like how we still meet and deliver or exceed our stakeholders expectations and continue to find ways that this work creates value.
Follow what your internal compass tells you
18:34: I think it's important to talk to outside voices that know you and also give you good advice. But, at the end of the day, you really have to follow what your internal compass tells you.
(Transcripts may contain a few typographical errors due to audio quality during the podcast recording.)
[00:00:00] Marcus: Welcome to Breaking Schemas, a podcast that explores the dynamic changes of contemporary business through the lenses of the disruptors who have not only navigated the changes but have also rewritten the rules of the game. We'll be sitting down with business leaders across a wide spectrum of industries to discuss their victories, their failures, and the biggest lessons they've experienced throughout their career to prepare tomorrow's leaders, that's you, for an ever-changing marketplace.
I'm Marcus Collins, marketing professor here at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan. I'll be your host, along with my co-conspirator, Professor John Branch. Now, let's get into it. Welcome back to another episode of Breaking Schemas. John, we have another leader in best with us, always a great guest, but this one, particularly good. Please welcome to the podcast, Devon Leahy. Devon, welcome.
[00:01:02] Devon: Hi, Marcus. Hey, John. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:06] Marcus: Are you kidding me?
[00:01:07] Devon: It's really very fun.
[00:01:09] Marcus: Thank you for being with us. There's so much awesomeness for us to dig into. So, let's not waste any time. For those who don't know, for the uninitiated, just to get you oriented to the room, Devon is the global head of sustainability at Ralph Lauren. You know Ralph Lauren polo. You know it, right?
And for the high school Marcus who is listening to this, my entire wardrobe as a kid was, like, 90% polo. Like, I'm just a polo guy. And it still very much owns a lot of my closet today. But as the global head of sustainability, what does that mean? How do you describe your work? And what makes it meaningful for you, Devon?
[00:01:47] Devon: Yeah. Great. Happy to, to jump in on that. I think also just to say that I, similarly, in, in high school, middle school, was a big polo kid. And I, I don't think I ever thought that I would have this kind of a role at that brand. You would have not gotten that idea from me when I was young.
What global sustainability at Ralph Lauren means is really looking at how we can take the amazing brand that Ralph, you know, and the leadership team have built over the last 54 years and really leverage that to drive positive impact, social, environmental across everything we do. So, that could be in the way that we source and manufacture and design our products.
It could be the store buildouts that, you know, if you walk into one of our flagship stores in, in a major city, it could be, you know, even small things, like, the gift box that you get with the Christmas present that you ordered for your father or your spouse. I mean, it really is weaving sustainability and impact into every aspect of what we do, which is a fun and, sort of, wide remit.
[00:02:51] Marcus: And so, why has this become a focal point of Ralph Lauren? Why is this important?
[00:03:01] Devon: Yeah. So, I think it's been, like many brands will say, you know, it's been important. It's, sort of, you know, quality, timelessness, authenticity are all foundings or principles and values of the company. So, it became more formally talked about and approached through the lens of sustainability really in the last, say, five or seven years.
And some of that's really due to the changing context of our industry, of whether that's what we're seeing from our competitors, consumers, all our wholesale partners, also the regulatory environment and employees. So, there's really a wide set of stakeholders and interests that, kind of, pushed this to become more formalized and, and more intentionally integrated.
And I guess I'd be remiss if I didn't mention it came really from our leadership and from Ralph. I'm the first person in this role. So, I've been in this role for just shy of five years. And it was really their vision, you know, to say "We, we've been doing this in different ways. We've been driving integration. How do we drive more impact and, like, more integration into the brand-"
[00:04:05] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:04:06] Devon: "... and created this, yeah, created this function?"
[00:04:08] Marcus: And so, I think says a lot that, so the organization, intentionally, made steps to get here to prioritize this in a very intentional way. You've been in the role just shy of five years, which means that you've been here way before that.
[00:04:24] Devon: Yeah.
[00:04:24] Marcus: So, how did you get into this space of sustainability, like, before it became a thing? You're, like, a, a trendsetter. Like, you are a disrupter, one would say. How, how did you get here?
[00:04:36] Devon: I mean, you know, it, it's like you never feel that when you're in it. It's, sort of, more retrospectively that... So, I really came into the corporate world and into, into business with a background and passion for environmental issues. I grew up in Northern Vermont. I was a skier. I spent a lot of time outdoors.
I started asking my parents why we were seeing forests be degraded by what, at the time, was acid rain that I could see from the ski lift in my little hometown in the northern part of Vermont. And it was those moments, those, like, sort of, pivotal experiences, that became touchstones in my career. Like, why is it that this is happening?
And we should be changing the way that business or industry, you know, operates or makes decisions so that we don't have those unintended consequences, you know, essentially, they're really, like, economic inefficiencies, right, that we're seeing, like, waste and these externalities, which aren't, you know, really symbolic of a, a well-run economy.
And so, that was, sort of, always my angle into business. And I studied environmental policy and government and economics all the way through school and came to Michigan really actually not sure about the business angle of it. Like, I think I knew that I wanted to engage with industry, but I didn't know I wanted to do it from within industry.
[00:05:55] Marcus: Sure. Yeah.
[00:05:55] Devon: And that was a big shift for me when I got to campus and started to meet other students and professors through the Urban Institute and also just at Ross that were pursuing this. And they're like, "No. They're there. Like, there are actual strategies. There are skills in finance and even accounting and corporate strategy that you can leverage to do what you're... you know, to, kind of, drive that impact that you're envisioning."
[00:06:22] Marcus: I mean, I think it's so important to note that your time at Michigan, sort of, helped frame the economic argument there because you actually said it, that there was a drive within you that was, like, "Let's do good for the sake of society, for the sake of our planet," but also that there is a business imperative there.
And we all think about, like, the environment as, like, a, as a social responsibility, altruistic push, but there's an economic driver here. John, like, that speaks a lot to, sort of, what Ross is about, right? Like, doing good actually leads to good business, right? Like, we're talking the same thing here, right, John?
[00:06:55] John: Absolutely. And just before I, I address that, you notice I got my collar popped here in-
[00:07:01] Devon: Good.
[00:07:02] John: ... respect to middle-school polo shirts. Yeah.
[00:07:06] Devon: Love it.
[00:07:07] John: I wanted to wear my cargo pants, but they were in the laundry. So, I love what you were saying there that there is a business case for this. And unfortunately, I think in our daily conversations, you know, the words greenwashing and wokeness and all the rest of it get thrown out, but I'd like to think that doing well for the planet, doing well for people also means doing well for the company. And that's what you're pushing here, right, Devon?
[00:07:33] Devon: Yeah, exactly. And I think one of the challenges with the whole space, the, kind of, corporate sustainability, you can call it ESG, 10 years ago, we called it CSR, like, whatever acronym you want to, to choose, is that touches a lot of topics, a lot of areas. And it's an easy target when something, kind of, seems to go awry, whether that's publicly or financially, you know, kind of, reputationally, financially, within the company.
And I think there are maybe two reasons why this happens. One is that it's so important for your corporate sustainability strategy to be your business strategy. It is not a, kind of, on-the-side marketing campaign, PR campaign, or even, you know, silo or pillar of, of strategy. It has to be embedded across the enterprise strategy. That's the language we use at, at Ralph Lauren. So, we have our Our Next Great Chapter: Accelerate. That is our enterprise-wide strategy.
That is the narrative we bring to the street. It's the narrative we bring to our employees. And sustainability is woven into it. And related to that, the second thing I think happens is that we can get too focused on, like, making statements. And as businesses, or, like, you know, even as business leaders, there's a lot of pressure for us to, particularly for, you know, eponymous brands or, you know, bigger brands, to make statements on, like, key social environmental issues.
And I think that you have to come back to the strategy and back to your strengths. You know, think about, like, your SWOT analysis. Like, what can we leverage here? It can't just be like, "Oh, we think this is interesting. We should go after it." So, I think those are two things that are really important, like, not, sort of, being pressured into making statements that aren't really aligned with where the brand has strengths and authenticity.
[00:09:22] John: And, you know, Devon, the fact that here at Michigan, we embed sustainability inside the business school talks to that point exactly. Your sustainability strategy and your business strategy are one and the same. In fact, I was teaching with Professor Joe Árvai, who was the director of the Erb Institute for a while, who has since left to one of our competitor schools, but he says that exact same thing, that your business strategy and your sustainability strategy must be one and the same.
I remember him telling a funny story about former CEO of Procter & Gamble who gave every employee at the company, or many employees at the company, business cards. And the business cards said your name, and under it, Chief Sustainability Officer.
[00:10:09] Devon: That's great.
[00:10:10] John: Right? So, integrating sustainability in your business rather than... I like what you said, instead of putting it on the side as a tangential thing.
[00:10:18] Devon: Yeah. And I think, look, it's easier said than done. I think you have to have the right infrastructure, and relationships and leadership. Like, there's a lot of things that have to come together for that to happen. And it's not, like, just because it's on the page of a slide does not mean that it is happening. You have to actually work at it, of course.
But that's also really where so much of, I mean, quite honestly, my time at Ross and then my time, you know, inside of company's sense, equips you to do that navigation. But it's, like, it's not just about being an expert, I don't know, in greenhouse gas accounting and, and measurement or even, like, climate science. You have to have a certain amount of that knowledge to be credible. But the business acumen and the, understanding of how to navigate a company and your communication skills are really key in this, kind of, a role.
[00:11:08] Marcus: Yeah. I mean, you're bridging these things that typically are disparate or sit in different houses and bring them together to show how these things are related, how they're interrelated, how they make sense, and ultimately, how they drive the business. I mean, this idea that this is not just about altruism. This is about a business imperative, I think, can't be understated here.
And as we think about, like, some of the regulatory challenges that the fashion industry is facing, especially more, like, fast fashion, but in particular, the industry, kind of, writ large, what the expectations are of consumers with the companies from which they consume and what the, the competition, where they're pointing their sales. What do you think, like, the biggest disruption to the industry is going to be? Like, what are you facing? Like, what are you, sort of, keeping you up at night, if you will?
[00:11:51] Devon: Yeah. I think it's threading the needle, no pun intended, between I call them, like, the guardrails or the constraints that we're facing from a regulatory perspective. And that is impacting everything from what kind of communication we can put in front of a consumer about a product.
So, like, don't say it's sustainable, don't say it's responsible, but still tell us what it is about it that you've worked for five years in the supply chain to make, to make better. Just being able to navigate both, like, what the consumer wants to know or what even our investors want to know, and balancing that with, you know, as our disclosures of environmental and social data become looked at the same way as our financial disclosures, we have to be very mindful of how we communicate our impact, what numbers we use, what, you know, KPIs.
And so, it's, I think, just this, like, balancing, you know, within the guardrails, like, how we still meet and deliver or exceed our stakeholders' expectations, and continue to find ways that this work creates value. So, like, whether that's risk mitigation, improving license to operate, improving efficiency, enhancing brand value. I think the thing that keeps me up at night is just, like, that aperture is, like, getting tighter.
[00:13:05] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:13:06] Devon: I think we're seeing really interesting innovation and creativity that's, kind of, stepping in to give us some good solutions along the way, but that's what's keeping me up.
[00:13:16] Marcus: You know, what I find fascinating about you and your work, Devon, is that, I mean, and I think this is going to be good for people listening, especially people who are early in their career, trying to figure out, like, what they want to be, what they want to do, is that you had already, sort of, identified what you were excited about at a very young age.
And you just found these ways of adding more, more components to your skill set, such that when the right opportunity presented itself, that you had already developed all the things to do it well. Like, again, you've been in this role for five years-
[00:13:50] Devon: Yeah.
[00:13:50] Marcus: ... but you've been thinking about this since you were, you know, a teenager, since you were a kid.
[00:13:53] Devon: Yeah.
[00:13:54] Marcus: And I find it to be really, really powerful, this idea of marrying the things that we're passionate about, i.e. things we're willing to suffer for, with an acumen of business skills, like, i.e. being able to communicate, understanding the science of it all, and tying those things together, to your point, thread a very, very, very fine needle that makes you uniquely situated to be at the company that you're in doing the work that you're doing. It's a fascinating thing. And hopefully, I think it's inspiring for students who are trying to figure out their way as well.
[00:14:27] Devon: Yeah. I do often reference, like, timing. And I don't want to call it luck, but timing. If I had been trying to pursue this, I don't know, 10 years earlier than I was, it would have looked really different, you know, different place, different time. And even today, when I speak with business students or folks who are pursuing master's degrees in the, kind of, sustainability space, there's a lot out there right now.
There are a lot of consultancies and brand strategy firms and, you know, corporate roles. There's definitely more opportunity, but it's also really hard, I think, to figure out, like, what is the job... you know, what, what actually is that role about? And I do really coach on or share this advice, like, ask the questions that are going to get you more of a sense, like, what are you going to do every day?
If you don't like building PowerPoints and spending a lot of time presenting your ideas, working on your communication skills, managing a team, you should not probably pursue a chief sustainability officer or, like, a head of sustainability role. That is so much of what these roles do. If you really want to spend time, like, analyzing the life cycle impact of one product versus another, like, building, you know, financial models around resale, there are other places that I would direct. Yeah. They all look really different.
[00:15:39] Marcus: I mean, that's tremendously helpful advice, which begs the question, what's, like, the worst advice you've been given when you're pursuing this? Like, what's, like, the worst advice? Like, "Oh, my gosh, they told me to do this. This is just terrible." Like, it was the, yeah, antithesis of everything they recommended.
[00:15:54] Devon: Yeah. I'm not going to say who gave me this advice because he's giving me so much good advice, but-
[00:15:59] Marcus: That's the best.
[00:16:00] Devon: ... but it was I was trying to make a decision about where I was going to go after Michigan to work. And I had spent the summer at Walmart. I was intrigued by what they were doing in sustainability, but it was still really early days. And it was a company that, you know, I just saw, like, there was still a lot of daylight between, like, a sustainable business model and the way that the business operated. It would mean moving to Arkansas.
It would have been, like, big change and, kind of, big risk. And I did have a mentor say to me that, like, it might be too, too risky or that I might be better off to go to P&G and become a really good brand marketer, and then try to parlay that into a sustainability role instead of what I was trying to do was to go to Walmart and basically build a sustainability marketing role, which I did after my internship, but it was, like, a big risk. And I knew that being a brand manager, it wasn't going to feed my soul-
[00:16:56] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:16:56] Devon: ... even if it was, like, in service to something bigger. And so, I said, "Thank you very much." And I decided to move to Arkansas. And I think it really did, you know, set that path. So, like, I think it's important to talk to outside voices that know you but also give you good, but, like, at the end of the day, you really have to follow what your internal compass tells you.
[00:17:14] Marcus: You got to put the first thing first-
[00:17:15] Devon: Yeah.
[00:17:16] Marcus: ... right? And the first thing first for you was really about the impact on the environment. And while the context in which you pursue that work can be different, whether it's a CPG company, whether it's-
[00:17:26] Devon: Yeah.
[00:17:26] Marcus: ... a retailer, right, whether it's a fashion company, those things can change, but that has to be the first thing. And I feel like that advice, which Procter & Gamble is a great company-
[00:17:34] Devon: Absolutely.
[00:17:35] Marcus: ... that advice to, sort of, put the first thing second-
[00:17:38] Devon: Yeah.
[00:17:38] Marcus: ... actually undermines the North Star guiding your way forward.
[00:17:42] Devon: And, I mean, by the way, like, I worked with many P&G folks when I was at Walmart. And our CEO at Ralph Lauren is former P&G. Like, it probably would have been an amazing experience had I had the opportunity. It just whether it was the right thing for me at that time was-
[00:17:55] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:17:55] Devon: ... what I had to discern on my own and not just, sort of, take that, like, "Yeah, don't move to Arkansas." I'm so glad.
[00:18:01] Marcus: Right, right, right.
[00:18:01] Devon: I'm, like, so glad I did, so.
[00:18:03] Marcus: Right. I mean, so, John, like, as we, sort of, wrap up here, what's coming to mind to me is this idea of, like, of a North Star being, sort of, not only a thing that guides you, but also be a way by which you disrupt your career, and also disrupt the category, how these businesses function based on a way they see the world.
Devon talked about, like, the leadership from Ralph all the way down, said that we want to prioritize this because they cared about it. They care about doing good. And that becomes a business advantage for them. Do you see it the same way that you see that? Like, talk to me, John.
[00:18:36] John: It's funny you say that because that is exactly what was popping into mind. We can call it your conviction. We can call it your North Star. We can dredge up our friend, Simon Sinek, here. What it reminds me of though, Marcus and Devon, is this newish model which I've been using when advising students. It's called the Ikigai model. Ikigai.
Some of you out there might know it. It's Ikigai, which means reason for being. It's a Japanese idea. And it involves four things. What do I love? What am I good at? What does the world need? And what can I be paid for? And what's interesting is Devon never used any of those terms when she was talking, but she actually touched on all of them, right? What do I love? Early days skiing in Northern Vermont. I love the environment.
[00:19:30] Devon: Yeah.
[00:19:31] John: What am I good at? You've developed a skill set, undergrad studies, and then post-grad here at Michigan. What the world needs? You mentioned timing. And you said timing because it was the right time for you, but you could argue that the world just didn't need it yet or did not perceive that it needed it. And the timing later was right for it. And then what can you be paid for? I'm hoping they're paying you to, to do this work.
[00:19:55] Devon: Yeah. It's not volunteer.
[00:19:57] John: Okay. You never know but...
[00:19:59] Marcus: I would get paid in wardrobe, though. I would actually take that up.
[00:20:01] John: Yeah, yeah, fair enough.
[00:20:02] Devon: Yeah. That, too. Yeah.
[00:20:03] John: But, yeah, I would say that you are a spokesperson for the Ikigai model. And I encourage everybody out there to check it out. Your goal is to find that sweet spot, that confluence on the Venn diagram between those four things. What do I love? What am I good at? What does the world need? And what can I be paid for?
[00:20:20] Marcus: Devon, does that feel true for you?
[00:20:22] Devon: Yes, absolutely. And sweet spot is more the language that I've used. And I've not spoken as eloquently about those four areas, but that is I feel like I've been constantly trying to strive for. And also, it's not like it happens and then you get it and then you don't maintain it because continuing to be what the world needs, like, that relevancy changes.
It's dynamic, right? And what you need to be good at changes. And so, I think that's something that is continuous. It's not like, oh, once you found it, you're done. You, sort of, have found you've unlocked it.
[00:20:55] Marcus: Oh, it's so well-said. Devon, thank you so much for blessing us with your brilliance, for providing perspective that many of us don't have, and hopefully inspiring us to find our own Ikigai so that we're able to operate within our sweet spot. Really appreciate you.
[00:21:11] Devon: Thank you so much. Really pleasure to chat with both of you. And I'll be taking back the Ikegai model and that language, John. Thank you.
[00:21:19] John: Thank you, Devon. It's great to see you. Take care of yourself. Bye, everybody.
[00:21:23] Devon: Take care. Bye.
[00:21:24] Marcus: Take care. Go Blue. Breaking Schemas is a Michigan Ross Podcast, powered by the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative and produced by University FM. Go, Blue!