From a young age while growing up in Jamaica, Knox Cameron knew he wanted to be a professional soccer player. In order to make that dream come true, he knew it was all about having the right mindset. Knox went on to become one of the top players for the University of Michigan when the program was just getting off the ground. He set the bar for the level of excellence expected on the team, and it’s what propelled him into the MLS. After a shining career in professional soccer, Knox pivoted and set his mind to a new task: being an all-star player in the energy sector for DTE. Knox joins Breaking Schemas co-host John Branch to chat about his soccer career at the collegiate and professional levels, the startup-like environment of the MLS, and how he’s brought that entrepreneurial spirit to the energy world with renewable programs like MIGreenPower. *Breaking Schemas is a production of the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative at Michigan Ross and is produced by University FM.*
From a young age while growing up in Jamaica, Knox Cameron knew he wanted to be a professional soccer player. In order to make that dream come true, he knew it was all about having the right mindset.
Knox went on to become one of the top players for the University of Michigan when the program was just getting off the ground. He set the bar for the level of excellence expected on the team, and it’s what propelled him into the MLS. After a shining career in professional soccer, Knox pivoted and set his mind to a new task: being an all-star player in the energy sector for DTE.
Knox joins Breaking Schemas co-host John Branch to chat about his soccer career at the collegiate and professional levels, the startup-like environment of the MLS, and how he’s brought that entrepreneurial spirit to the energy world with renewable programs like MIGreenPower.
*Breaking Schemas is a production of the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative at Michigan Ross and is produced by University FM.*
Knox’s first leap toward breaking the mold.
[03:49] I was a highly recruited athlete coming out of high school. I could have attended one of a number of great soccer institutions and programs and continued with their legacy, and so on and so forth. But for me, it was an interesting opportunity to be able to lead a startup essentially, right? It was a startup organization that was labeled a men's soccer team, but we had the backing. So, you could think about your VCs in some capacity. That, to me, is the background, that is, the institution. That is the University of Michigan. So, I knew I had the comfort, the network, the community of Michigan behind me, but also knew I had this incredible opportunity and responsibility to set a pathway that was brand new.
Innovating business models in the electricity industry through MIGreen Power.
The program was launched because DTE, we knew, one, we need to construct renewable energy to support this clean energy transformation in time. But the program is interesting in that you can go to private subscribers who want these renewable energy attributes and we'll pay for it separate and aside from the utilities broader general rate base of customers. So, it introduces an incredible value proposition in that you can develop, construct, help the utilities earnings profile, which helps all of its investors, and that's a beautiful thing. You can help the end-use customer who wants these environmental attributes, and while doing so, you can help your affordability benefits to your non-subscribing customers.
Kicking off a new career: From all-star player on the field to all-star player in the energy sector.
[18:08]: As I completed my undergraduate degree and then pursued the career, Energy and the Utilities came to mind. DTE provided me an opportunity to learn and grow fundamentally, and I've spent the greater part of 15 years on developing my career, learning the industry, and serving at a company that has been around for hundreds of years, over 150 years, in fact. So, I think we certainly checked the box there from a safety and security perspective. I then sort of had the same set of mindset and pursuits as when I was actually on the field. Hey, what does it take to be a first-team performer now in the energy and utility sector? What does it mean to be the Big Ten Player of the Year? What does a first-team all-American performer look like? And then, what is a failed professional soccer career and all of the learnings? How do you put that also into the mix to deliver on what it is that you're doing today? That's the mindset, John, as I think about the work at DTE.
(Transcripts may contain a few typographical errors due to audio quality during the podcast recording.)
[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Breaking Schemas, a podcast that explores the dynamic changes of contemporary business through the lenses of the disruptors who’ve not only navigated the changes but have also rewritten the rules of the game. We’ll be sitting down with business leaders across a wide spectrum of industries to discuss their victories, their failures, and the biggest lessons they’ve experienced throughout their career to prepare tomorrow’s leaders — that’s you — for an ever-changing marketplace.
I’m Marcus Collins, marketing professor here at the Ross School of Business University of Michigan. I’ll be your host, along with my co-conspirator, Professor John Branch. Now, let’s get into it.
[00:00:45] John: Hello, dear listeners. This is John Branch, professor of marketing at Michigan Ross of the University of Michigan. It's great to have you here for another episode of Breaking Schemas. Unfortunately, absent today is my co-host and co-author and co-conspirator, Professor Marcus Collins. But we have a great episode today. On Breaking Schemas is Knox Cameron, alumnus of the University of Michigan, superstar soccer player, Wolverine.
Welcome, Knox!
[00:01:14] Knox: Thank you for having me, John. Good to see you again. Always a pleasure to chat.
[00:01:18] John: Thanks very much. Let's just jump right in, starting first with, who are you? Where are you from? What's the news?
[00:01:26] Knox: Love it. Thank you. Thank you for that question. Yeah, I was born and raised in Kingston, Jamaica. And that was an amazing experience. I have fond memories of being raised in something different than what I've come to know today. And then migrated to the United States when I was about nine years old. My family moved to the Bronx, New York.
And that migration, actually, John, occurred in the winter time. So, as you can imagine, moving from a tropical climate like Jamaica to then in the middle of winter in New York City, that was quite shocking. But certainly, it was something that was welcomed because it provided my, my family an opportunity to grow and realize the American dream, quite frankly.
[00:02:09] John: Yeah, two interesting things about Jamaica. I recently visited Kingston and had an amazing time there. Curried goat…
[00:02:16] Knox: Of course.
[00:02:17] John: Absolutely fantastic. And I happened to be there on the weekend of the National Athletics Championships. And for any of you out there who know Jamaica and Usain Bolt, it's more than that. Like, the entire country is track and field crazy. So, you must have been a little bit of a disappointment to the homeland that you became a soccer player rather than a, than a runner.
[00:02:37] Knox: And I would say a rather slow soccer player at that, okay. So, yes, further adding to the disappointment of my country. But yes, that's an interesting story. So, there are segments of my life, and they were actually in and around, like, the nine-year chunks. So, the, the first nine years, I mentioned moving from Kingston to New York city. And then, right at around 18 years old, having the opportunity to be enrolled at the University of Michigan.
But that really started with my soccer journey. And so, I was lucky to have been offered a scholarship to the university. The interesting thing about U of M's team at that point in time, they were a very young team, having started its varsity program in 2000, and I was coming in the subsequent year in 2001. So, when you think about an institution with such rich history and legacy, yet this dichotomy of, of a startup sort of environment that I was coming into, and when you think about breaking the mold, John, that was my first foray or vision into wanting to break the mold.
Okay. So, I was a highly recruited athlete, coming out of a high school. I could have attended one of a number of great soccer institutions and programs and continued with their legacy and so on and so forth, but for me, it was an interesting opportunity to be able to lead a startup, essentially, right? It was a startup organization that was labeled a men's soccer team. But we had the backing. So, you could think about, you know, your VCs in some capacity. That, to me, is the background that is the institution that is the University of Michigan.
So, I knew I had the comfort, the network, the community of Michigan behind me, but also knew I had this incredible opportunity and responsibility to set a pathway that was brand new. And I saw my parents do it in terms of their migration story from Jamaica to New York. And so, I had great precedents and inspiration in my journey coming to U of M. And so, that's what appealed to me about the U of M opportunity. It was, man, rich history, bunch of legacy, but also, “Hey, you can make your mark here on something brand new.”
[00:05:05] John: That's very interesting. I published a book a few years ago with some other co-authors, and we made the argument, which is pretty much the word these days, that entrepreneurs are made, not born — that is to say, you can teach entrepreneurship. You do not need to, to be hatched as an entrepreneur.
So, I'd like you to dig in a little bit more about that. What do you think there was about you who you were willing to take a bet on something like a one-year-old varsity program? Is it all down to your parents’ immigrant story? Is there something maybe you were indeed born with flying in the face of the wisdom of entrepreneurs are made not born? What do you think really attracted you to this opportunity of the startup culture of a new varsity program?
[00:05:57] Knox: I've always sought out startup-like cultures, okay. That has been a thing. If folks track my soccer career, the great Detroit City Football Club, DCFC, and in Detroit today, when I was post my major league soccer career, right, I joined their program in their very first year. I was… I scored their very first goal.
And so, when you think about starting their program from 500 folks at CAST Tech to, now, what they do in Hamtramck and a vision for something greater, that was embedded within, within me. That got me excited, John. The opportunity to come to Michigan got me excited. And now, as I think about some of the roles that I've inherited at DTE, where I currently serve and have been serving over the greater part of 15 years, over the last five years of those 15, I also launched another startup in our voluntary renewable energy program that is called MIGreenPower.
And so, at different phases of my life, I have never been excited by being a part of something existing. And I’ve always been more excited about pushing the envelope about creation, about development, and about channeling just that entrepreneurial spirit. And I will say, yeah, though I had inspiration from my parents, I fundamentally believe that is within me — the establishment of something and originating something and then watching it flourish from there.
[00:07:33] John: That's great. I cannot let you gloss over the MLS stuff.
[00:07:40] Knox: Understood.
[00:07:42] John: I've known you for quite some time. I know you as a very humble guy. But this is, this is Breaking Schemas at the University of Michigan. We are known as leaders in the best. So, let's brag on you for a little bit here.
I know that you were one of the most decorated soccer stars here at the University of Michigan on the Wolverine soccer team, and then went on to an MLS career, unfortunately, in that state just below us, if I understand correctly. Just say a little bit more about that. And don't be shy and don't be humble. Brag on yourself a little bit.
[00:08:12] Knox: That's… oh, goodness. So, yes, my, soccer journey, I will say it's been filled with a number of accomplishments and recognition, but my goal at a very young age was just that my dream was to be a professional soccer player. And my entire focus, my entire upbringing, my entire mindset was geared towards that. I think my parents helped me recognize very quickly that I did have a talent. And so, yeah, I knew it was a responsibility at a very young age. Also, being the eldest of three boys, you have this incredible responsibility of leadership within that. And then you think about being immigrants, black kids being raised in the Bronx, you start to layer on how many obstacles and so on and so forth that you could be faced with in order to achieve this ultimate goal.
U of M, once again, provided me the platform and opportunity. And with that, I was able to achieve some fundamentally awesome things and some first-of-its-kind type things. You know, the first men's soccer player to achieve first team all-American, for instance. You know, I take great pride in that. I was recognized as the Big Ten Player of the Year in 2003, along with garnering many first team recognitions across the Big Ten Conference.
So, I had a pretty successful playing career, I will say, at Michigan. And then that set the stage for the opportunity with the Columbus crew in Major League Soccer. So, John, you're absolutely right. I had to spend time in Ohio, okay. I don't brag about it. In fact, I don't even bring it up often, to be honest, just jokingly. I have great friends in Columbus. But that was the realization of a dream, the realization of all of the investments that were made in me, in myself, the sacrifices and so on and so forth, to be able to ultimately get to that point. And then to be on the highest level in your respective country, yeah, there is a high sense of accomplishment there. But I will say, through that journey, it also provided the greatest learning experience, John, because if you think about, if folks were to track my career, getting up to that point, and you left a blank space for about 10 years or so, someone would easily say, “Hey, man, this Knox Cameron guy would have had a 10-to-12-year soccer career. He would have achieved many of those things that he achieved in college in the professional ranks.” Okay.
And why I say it was an awesome learning experience was because, ultimately, for me, I failed at my dream, okay. I failed at my dream because I didn't deploy that same mindset that got me there. I actually thought that, when I was there, then I had accomplished something. And I think that was the right mindset. The mindset that I should have had was, “Hey, I've achieved this thing that I've always wanted. Now, the journey really starts.” And so, I take great pride in my playing career, but I even take a greater sense of takeaway in the learnings that came from that, that I'm now implementing in my current life.
[00:11:28] John: I want to ask you about the culture of the MLS, because at the time when you joined, it was still relatively new as a professional league.
[00:11:39] Knox: Of course.
[00:11:39] John: Did it also have that, that entrepreneurial startup feel to it? And if so, was this an attractive part of playing in the MLS for you?
[00:11:49] Knox: I would say so. Yes, it was certainly, when you think about all hands on deck, it was an all hands on deck type of approach. You certainly felt a, a tighter knit community as MLS was expanding and starting up its operations. And yeah, we were on the front end of it. And there were pros and cons of any startup, John. And there were pros and cons of our startup environment and in Major League Soccer as well.
I was blessed to play in the very first soccer-specific stadium in the United States. And that was Crew Stadium. And that was really cool to not play on a field with football lines. Like, those were new kind of developments in and around that time, right? When we were traveling and playing what, what was then the New York Metro Stars, they're now the New York Red Bull, you're playing on football fields. We would go to Soldier Field in Chicago and play the Chicago fire. You're playing on football fields.
And so, to play in Crew Stadium in Ohio, I guess that was one of the things that the Columbus area offered that was unique in nature and allowed it to stand apart positively. So, yeah, there were very much elements of the startup culture. And then you think about just the uncertainties that come with that, the financials come to play, John, and you're thinking about developing something. And once again, we talk about the backing, the VC backing.
Certainly, MLS had strong financial support, but it had to operate very efficiently. There's no doubt about it. And you look across their model for salary and so on, there were a lot of just bespoke approaches that MLS had to take that was very unique to MLS, as opposed to its NFL counterparts, NHL counterparts, because you did not have the financial comfort at that point in time. There were no major TV deals. You know, the likes of the Messis weren't there yet. The likes of the Beckham's weren't there yet. And so, yeah, $200 million contracts were not a thing. Half a million-dollar contracts were not a thing in that point in time.
And so, those are also things that I weighed in my decision as to when I was stepping away from play. You know, essentially, I was tired of being broke at that point. But also, being a top-notch athlete, it was a weird sort of conundrum. And I decided to step aside a few short years after and say, “Hey, let me put this U of M degree to work and go on to influence and effectively lead the U of M ethos in another field,” right? And in this particular case, it is the energy field, but the same rules apply.
[00:14:38] John: I was going to joke that MLS, certainly, was the startup mentality because you were working your butt off and taking no salary, right?
[00:14:48] Knox: Oh, well, I had to include that part. That's a factual statement. Things were tight.
[00:14:52] John: Yeah. You provided a nice opportunity for a segue there to your energy career. And, dear listeners, this is how Knox and I actually met. Because Michigan Ross has this thing called the MAP Project, Multidisciplinary Action Projects. And, and Knox was sponsoring one from DTE for our Weekend MBA students. And we met through that. But tell us a little bit more about that switch from MLS to, kind of, entrepreneurial startup world and now to energy and how that came about.
[00:15:24] Knox: Yeah. So, this, I will say, is my next, sort of, critical milestone moment. And certainly, when we're talking about breaking all things systematic, this falls certainly in line, John. When you think about professional athletes and their transition away from the game, some are more graceful than others. I had that challenge of transitioning, but I also didn't have $100 million in the bank as someone who would have played 10 years in the NFL or NBA and then retired.
And so, those folks, just to be clear, have their own issues and challenges with transitioning away from a sport and game that you have identified yourself within, you have been praised and recognized, and your entire value system has been constructed around. And so, it's an interesting metamorphosis as you step away from that. And at the time, I had not completed my undergraduate degree. When I was drafted, I was in my senior year and I had vacated 18 credits that still needed to be completed.
So, that was also in the back of my mind as well. And I didn't give myself the best opportunity to, sort of, hit the ground running, so to speak. So, think about a young athlete who's had a storied collegiate career, but some short years after is having an in-depth conversation with the coaching staff at the professional team who is now alerting you to the fact that your contract is no longer valid, right? That is a very nice way of saying, “Thank you, but you're released from our team.”
That was a very sobering experience of realizing that your dreams could very well be shattered, so to speak. And so, it was tough, right? And that transition was a difficult one, but took about a year or so completing the undergraduate degree. And then the major thing that was in the back of my mind, as I was transitioning, was I wanted a space. I wanted a career that was anchored around safety and security. As I thought about the professional environment, professional athletics, it's very volatile, right? Here today, gone tomorrow, so to speak. You know, you hear the adage about the NFL not for long, right? So, those things are real, right? And they could be unsettling for many athletes at the highest of levels. And I was in, sort of, the same boat and I wanted safety and security.
And so, as I completed my undergraduate degree and then pursued the career, energy and the utilities came to mind. DTE provided me an opportunity to learn and grow fundamentally. And I've spent the greater part of 15 years developing my career, learning the industry, and serving at a company that has been around for hundreds of years, over 150 years, in fact.
So, I think we certainly checked the box there from a safety and security perspective. I, then, sort of, had the same set of mindset and pursuits as when I was actually on the field. “Hey, what does it take to be a first team performer now in the energy and utility sector? What does it mean to be the Big Ten player of the year? What does a first team all-American performer look like? And then, what is a failed professional soccer career and all of the learnings, how do you put that also into the mix to deliver on what it is that you're doing today?” That's the mindset, John, as I think about the work at DTE. And I've had the incredible pleasure of learning from folks, partnering with incredible people. It's a very, very important line of business when you think about serving electricity to 2.3 million electric customers and their power remaining on because you understand the problems when it is not on. I've come to appreciate the mission of the organization, and certainly on board to be living it.
[00:19:50] John: Your last comment there reminds me of the old adage about nobody notices the elevator until it's not working, right? And certainly, we know here in the state of Michigan, with our ice storms and our heat storms and branches knocking over wires, how, how that adage plays out.
I want to go back just a second to when we met and you were doing something so fascinating, which I think ties our entire discussion together. And that is how you were trying to be entrepreneurial inside this safe and secure utilities business. And I'm sure that our listeners will be fascinated. It's the MIGreenPower. And in particular, around Scope 1, Scope 2, Scope 3 emissions and how, how you were really, let's say, in a startup mindset, entrepreneurializing (I just made that verb up) but trying to innovate around a new business model in order to effectively change the way we think about sustainability in the electricity industry. Tell us a little bit more about that program, because it is fascinating.
[00:20:59] Knox: Yes, I completely agree. So, about five years ago, I had an awesome opportunity to leverage the skills I had gained from a prior role in leading a sales team. And so, I was approached about a role within the company to sell renewables. And so, I was like, “That's an interesting concept. You're selling power in a new way. And what does it all mean?” And you do not get this opportunity quite often, where you're presented with an objective, you're presented with a budget, but then you're also presented with this blank slate for what the team would look like to help the organization grow, okay.
And so, I was asked to develop a team to support the MIGreenPower program. But it's an interesting program, John, because all utility providers, given the considerations around climate change, has to think about emissions. That is just a natural kind of fundamental thought process here. How are you thinking about your environmental stewardship as an organization, as a provider? And how are you helping the world be better?
And so, the program was launched because DTE, we knew, one, we need to construct renewable energy to support this clean energy transformation in time. But the program is interesting in that you can go to private subscribers who want these renewable energy attributes, and we'll pay for it, separate and aside from the utilities’ broader general rate base of customers.
So, it introduces an incredible value proposition in that you can develop, construct, help the utilities’ earnings profile, which helps all of its investors. And that's a beautiful thing. You can help the end-use customer who wants these environmental attributes. And while doing so, you can help your affordability benefits to your non-subscribing customers. And my team and I began to construct an entire vision around this program and its benefits. And quite frankly, we saw, astronomically, more benefits than there were negatives. So, that, that was the first thing.
And so, we began to hire folks who were passionate about the cause, who were passionate about the objective that was in front of us here. We can help the environment. We can help the company. And we can help all of our other 2.3 million customers who may not want to invest in this particular type of project. And so, to us, this was a unicorn, quite frankly, in the utility environment. And we got everybody charged up about it, okay.
And so, we've been running now five years long. And as you think about the partners who we've had along the way, given that we were driving on a sales function, the list is incredible. So, happy to name some here because it not only speaks to the value of the program, but actually speaks to those entities and their vision for a cleaner future that we all can enjoy. But our largest customers today, Ford Motor Company, Stellantis, General Motors, the University of Michigan, I can go on and on and on about the folks who have established an environmental leadership position and are driving forward on that. And it gives me an immense amount of pleasure to know that the team that we help construct is at the intersection of those transactions to help the corporation, once again, help these end-use customers and help DTE's customers at large. And of course, we're doing it for the broader benefit, which is to help our environment.
[00:25:01] John: Knox, thank you for sharing. It was an amazing, and continues to be, an amazing program. And I think it captures what I believe is the theme of our episode together, Knox, which is, I'm going to coin it here, mindset as the disruptor.
[00:25:17] Knox: I love it.
[00:25:17] John: For a couple of reasons. First, when I first started working with DTE, this is 20 years ago, as a marketing professor, I was appalled by “the mindset” at DTE because the term, “customer,” was never used. The term was called, “rate payer.” So, the fact that DTE has shifted its own mindset, culturally, from, these are rate payers, we are producers of electricity, to, we are stewards of the environment, we are energy providers, and we are serving customers and other important stakeholders. That was a huge mindset shift at DTE.
I also like how MIGreenPower captures a mindset shift away from simple, “we produce electricity, we sell electricity,” to something bigger, more entrepreneurial spirit, developing programs, which can serve many, many different stakeholders in the ecosystem of Greater Metro Detroit.
And I love how it reflects how your mindset, your mindset about leadership, your mindset about teamwork, your mindset about entrepreneurship, this program captured, it seems to me, your mindset and how you've approached your life. It has been such a delight, Knox, to see you again, to speak with you and hear a little bit more about your career here at Michigan and also at DTE. Congratulations on all of your success, in both professions, right, the professional soccer and, now, professional executive within the utility space.
Folks, thank you for joining me, Professor John Branch, for another episode of Breaking Schemas. I look forward to seeing you on our next program. Until then, take care and as always, go, Blue!
[00:27:05] Outro: Breaking Schemas is a Michigan Ross podcast powered by the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative and produced by University FM. Go, Blue!