Most business leaders with good sense would say starting a for-profit company and a nonprofit company at the same time is not going to be a successful business venture. You need to make the money first and then invest in the nonprofit later. But that’s exactly what David Merritt, former University of Michigan point guard, did. David was so invested in the mission of his company, Merit Goodness, he was determined to find a way to make his fashion brand work just enough to simultaneously fund his after-school college planning program for Detroit youth. Since starting the company 12 years ago, they’ve helped hundreds of students graduate high school and go on to college with the resources they need to succeed for the rest of their lives. David tells Breaking Schemas co-hosts Marcus Collins and John Branch that the key ingredient to Merit Goodness is all about shifting perspective on what success means. *Breaking Schemas is a production of the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative at Michigan Ross and is produced by University FM.*
Most business leaders with good sense would say starting a for-profit company and a nonprofit company at the same time is not going to be a successful business venture. You need to make the money first and then invest in the nonprofit later. But that’s exactly what David Merritt, former University of Michigan point guard, did.
David was so invested in the mission of his company, Merit Goodness, he was determined to find a way to make his fashion brand work just enough to simultaneously fund his after-school college planning program for Detroit youth. Since starting the company 12 years ago, they’ve helped hundreds of students graduate high school and go on to college with the resources they need to succeed for the rest of their lives.
David tells Breaking Schemas co-hosts Marcus Collins and John Branch that the key ingredient to Merit Goodness is all about shifting perspective on what success means.
*Breaking Schemas is a production of the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative at Michigan Ross and is produced by University FM.*
What is Merit Goodness?
17:00: We use Merit in a number of ways. It's the clothing, but it's also the platform where young people can discover their passions, create their own future, and start to build their skills in entrepreneurship, marketing, product design, and design thinking. And so, it's a holistic approach that we believe in, helping young people aspire, believe, and contribute.
Going beyond the typical: Innovation and creativity for non-profit
08:23: We are not a typical non-profit. So, when you think about our program, we want to think outside the box. We want to think: let's create something that hasn't been created before. How can we take elements of things that have been created and take our own spin on it? When it comes to our marketing and our videos, we don't really want to be seen in the same way as the typical non-profit sort of industry. We do like kind of mirroring both of those elements where we're taking things that are happening in business and taking things that are happening in technology, and how do we merge that mindset and expose our kids to that mindset as well.
Embracing the mission beyond success
23:11: It is really the mission that drives what we do. We have not been able to create a successful fashion company; that hasn't happened. So, he's exactly right. We've done 12 years of it. But the difference is that I'm not going anywhere. So, if it takes me 40 years to figure out how to make both of them work, I've got 40 years of time, right? Because I'm so tied to the mission and so tied to what we're doing. Whereas in business, a lot of times, you just don't have that luxury to be at a place long enough to really care about what should be cared about.
(Transcripts may contain a few typographical errors due to audio quality during the podcast recording.)
[00:00:00] Marcus: Welcome to Breaking Schemas, a podcast that explores the dynamic changes of contemporary business through the lenses of the disruptors who have not only navigated the changes but have also rewritten the rules of the game.
We'll be sitting down with business leaders across a wide spectrum of industries to discuss their victories, their failures, and the biggest lessons they've experienced throughout their career to prepare tomorrow's leaders, that's you, for an ever-changing marketplace. I'm Marcus Collins, marketing professor here at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan.
I'll be your host, along with my co-conspirator, Professor John Branch. Now, let's get into it. Here we are back with another episode. And this time, this time, John, we have a very distinguished guest. I guess all our guests are distinguished, let's be honest, but this one is super special because he and I go way back. This is my guy. We have with us Michigan alum, David Merritt, founder of Merit Goodness. David, my man, it's good to have you.
[00:01:08] David: It's always a pleasure. And I really appreciate the opportunity to be on the podcast.
[00:01:13] Marcus: Oh, man. The pleasure is all ours. So, as the founder of Merit Goodness, what does that mean? What is Merit Goodness? Tell us about the work you do and all that it entails.
[00:01:21] David: Yeah. So, in a general sense, Merit is caused by design. It is an apparel company that is focused on not only making a social impact through our product sales and our organization, but also to do that through high-quality clothing. And so, 20% of our company profits fund helping young people get to college and to realize their dreams.
And a little bit distinctly from other organizations that may have a give-back component where their money is supporting another organization, we just went ahead and made our own organization. And so, these dollars that we're raising through our company profits go to fund a program that we have in the city and have been running for the last 12 years called FATE, which is an 8-year cohort-based program for Detroit high school students.
And so, those students are with us from their 9th grade year all the way through their college graduation. Each student that we support receives up to $8,000 in college scholarships. And then the big, kind of, kicker and, sort of, connection is that the brand also acts as a backdrop for the work that the students are doing in our program.
And so, we use Merit in a number of ways. It's the clothing, but it's also the platform where young people can discover their passions, create their own future, and start to build their skills in entrepreneurship, marketing, product design, design thinking. And so, it's a holistic approach that we believe to helping young people aspire, believe, and contribute.
[00:02:50] Marcus: I mean, this is the epitome of being totally integrated. This is, like, legit for us by us in all the best ways possible. And doing it in a place that is, of course, near and dear to you, Detroit, right, your home, the work you do in your ministry, the work you and your family have committed yourself to, that this has, sort of, been a nice extension of what you've all been invested in for years. Yeah?
[00:03:15] David: Yeah. So, my parents started Straitgate Church, a non-denominational ministry, in the city of Detroit 45 years ago. And growing up, I could clearly see pretty early on, there were things that I was receiving that my friends and peers weren't receiving. I have two beautiful parents, a wonderful family. And then there were things that my friends were going through on a consistent basis that I had never had to spend one second thinking about.
That got to me, like, very early on. I saw that very early on. And I always questioned why that was. And as I continued to grow and got to college, I remember a distinct conversation with one of my teammates at Michigan. It was all of us. We had, like, six or seven teammates from Detroit at the time. And we were at a training table after one of our practices. And this was around 2008.
And we're all trying to figure out ways in which we can utilize our gifts and talents to impact the city of Detroit. And so, we're going around the room. And one of our teammates, we get to him. And with the sternness of faces, as stoic as can be, he says, "Blow it up." And we were like, like, "Okay. Would you add something that's credible to our conversation?" And his expression never changed. He said, "Blow it up and start over."
[00:04:33] Marcus: Wow.
[00:04:33] David: "So, that's the only way you're going to change the city of Detroit." And you could feel the grief and the pain. About a year earlier, his younger brother was just shot and killed walking down the street, like, for no reason. And you could, kind of, feel that pain. And that really stuck with me that our young people in the city of Detroit are bombarded with negativity on a consistent basis.
They don't have the amount of resources and opportunities to be successful. And we don't point that as a them-problem. I think, as a community, we've failed in that right that we all should have. And so, for me, since graduating from Michigan, that's really been my mission and purpose is how do we level the playing field?
And how do we offer opportunities and resources for our young people to create their own future? And we get to do that creatively through business and product, but it's really the mission, I think, that does drive it all and still drives us 12 years later that we've been doing it.
[00:05:33] Marcus: Now, how does one get into this line of work? I mean, and just so you know, John, he's subtly flexed on us, but David was on the basketball team in Michigan. And correct me if I'm wrong, were you not the captain of the team?
[00:05:44] David: Yeah. It's my last year. I was.
[00:05:45] Marcus: Yeah. That's what I thought. Yeah. So, you're the captain of the Michigan basketball team. Just subtly, like, at practice, the guys were talking. So, how does one normally get into this line of work? Like, what's the status quo? Because what do you study to get into that work? And as I know you, I don't remember, like, any of, sort of, the traditional scholarly or academic trajectories that get you there. How do you normally get to this line of work?
[00:06:12] David: You know, for me, it's just a blessing from God. Like I said, two amazing parents that, kind of, set the foundation. Being able to watch them dedicate their entire lives to the well-being of other people made a big impression on me. I tried as much as possible to run away from that lineage and that calling, but God brought me right back.
And so, for me, that's what really, I think, allows these pieces to come together. Definitely, when we started out, it was nowhere near what it is now. And things just, kind of, happen. Sports management major at Michigan didn't go directly in the sports, but that major does have a marketing, kind of, advertising slant to it.
And so, I was, you know, in all of our projects in school through high school and college, you know, always trying to do a commercial for a project or, you know, I had a Mac, I had the lamp-style Mac, as an eighth grader in middle school. So, I was always in iPhoto and iMovie and just, like, playing around and doing things.
So, I think I didn't know it at the time, but, you know, just watching my dad operate and how he made things out of nothing, I think, just got passed down to me a little bit, you know, just trying to, to do them proud as we, you know, try to continue that legacy.
[00:07:27] Marcus: And did you do any apprenticeship or any work with non-profits beforehand? I mean, other than the church, because from people that I know who worked in... you know, I mean, we say it's a non-profit, but it is a business driver, right? It's-
[00:07:42] David: Yeah.
[00:07:42] Marcus: ... in the service of informing another entity through the exchange of commerce. Particularly if you think about clothing, like, most people in Michigan, they'll do, like, The Detroit Project, or Circle K, or anything like that, or then they'll do maybe, like, a City Year or something like that. Like, they'll work in the world of non-profit and then do their own venture. Is that the route you went in at all?
[00:08:03] David: No, didn't really work for a non-profit. And I think that's a little bit helpful for us in the sense that when it comes to innovation and creativity, not to say that that's not found in the non-profit world because there are some non-profits that do amazing things in that area, but I think that's what we've tried to, like, really push the limits into we are not a typical non-profit.
So, when you think about our program, we want to think outside the box. We want to think, "Let's create something that hasn't been created before. How can we take elements of things that have been created and take our own spin on it when it comes to our marketing and our videos?" You know, we don't really want to be seen in the same way as the typical non-profit, sort of, industry.
We do, like, kind of, mirroring both of those elements where we're taking things that are happening in business and taking things that are happening in technology. And how do we merge that mindset and expose our kids to that mindset as well?
So, the whole premise of our FATE program is you create your own future. The gifts and talents that God has put in you, He's put in no one else. And you have the ability to shape your life, your family's life, and your community's life. Like, that is within you right now. And how do we put you in a position for you to start discovering and playing with those things? That's, kind of, how we try to think and have a philosophy around innovation and creativity.
[00:09:29] John: David, the story is so great. You caught me laughing a little bit. You're reminding me of the progressive insurance ads going on right now. Progressive can't stop you from becoming your parents, right?
[00:09:39] David: Yeah.
[00:09:39] John: The word which, kind of, pops into my mind when I hear you passionately speak about what you're doing at Merit Goodness is environment. You grew up in an environment which was supportive, loving, caring, pushed you in all the correct ways, supported you in all the correct ways. Do you see Merit Goodness and the work which you do essentially providing an environment for kids who perhaps did not have the same environment and consequently are not reaching their potential?
[00:10:11] David: Yeah, I would agree with that 100%. And I do think the uniqueness around what we're trying to accomplish is the value that we are placing upon our young people. You know, even through COVID, we thought we knew our kids, but during COVID, we discovered so much about the challenges that they face on a daily basis in their families, in their communities.
And the gaps that we intended to shrink when we first started, we saw those gaps widening through COVID. Our, I think, specialty is seeing the immense value that these young people have. And as you're saying, how do we create this environment? We only see our students two and a half hours a week, right? But there's a lot of hours in a day. They're at school. They're with their families.
And it's not to say that they are not being provided this, but what we say when they come into our building for two and a half hours, we're going to shower them with an amount of energy and love and value to where they can't question whether or not someone cares. They can't question whether or not, you know, somebody is seeing them in a certain light.
Now, it's only for two and a half hours, but we try to make sure that two and a half hours is, as you're saying, an environment that cultivates an immense amount of value, that we're not only saying we see in them, but we're expecting to get in return for the value that we're placing on them, right? So, there's a high level of expectation to say, you know, "If I value you so much, I should be receiving what I am seeing in you." And so, those expectations are pretty high as well.
[00:11:46] Marcus: Yeah. John, I've had the pleasure of contributing to the programming for FATE. And, man, as soon as the kids walk into the room, walk to the building, the energy just shoots up. I mean, they're showered with love. They're showered with admiration. I like the way you put it, David. Like, it's a charge that, like, we know you're great, so we expect you to be great.
[00:12:06] David: Yeah.
[00:12:07] Marcus: And I remember, as soon as things kicked off, they come together in the round to do a circle where everyone can see each other. And they talked with, like, full of affirmations to, sort of, level set, like, here's who you are. Here's what we expect of you. Now, let's get after it. It's a sight to see for sure.
[00:12:25] John: You know, David, you told the story about your teammate saying, "Blow it up." You, kind of, are blowing it up. Not blowing it up, leveling it, raising it to ground, you're blowing up the normal schema. You're breaking the schema. You're blowing up the way that these kids have lived their lives up until this point. So, you know, we, kind of, think that was a negative comment from that teammate of yours, but there might have been some insight there.
[00:12:50] David: Yeah. And to just piggyback on that with what you're saying, what Marcus is saying, we begin in each FATE workshop with our pledge, which is very similar to the pledge of allegiance, but they're pledging to FATE, they're pledging to their peers, and they're pledging to their community. And we end with, "I am an educated world-class citizen. I am a world changer."
And I would say, the first 6 or 7 years, it was always, like, us in the middle leading this charge and leading this pledge. And we found that we were running into some instances where some of the young people didn't want to say it, some of the young people were like... And so, one of the ways we looked at correcting that issue is, like, we started to put them in the middle. Instead of us and your call and responding to us, you know, you need to call and respond to yourself.
And it's just been so interesting over the last few years as we've just changed that, that one shift where it's not us leading it and it's them leading it, where the amount of times that we have to tell somebody to not to say the pledge or to act a certain way in the circle has just diminished by that one little element of them being involved in leading it for themselves, which I think is very interesting when you're thinking about how do you get someone engaged in certain activities.
[00:14:04] Marcus: Yeah. So, as I hear you tell the story of Merit, the origins, how you've optimized over the years, what I hear is this, sort of, reverberation, or the refrain rather, is that this is about just bringing together different perspectives that you've experienced, that your partner-in-crime, Kuhu, have experienced. And as you bring more people in, bringing more experiences in, to create something unique and novel by having unique and novel perspectives, you know, to solve said problems, right? Is that fair to say?
[00:14:39] David: I think that's fair. And as you said, don't want to take any of the credit, Kuhu has been here from day one and is our executive director and, sort of, runs the show, but now we're a team of 15, you know. So, what was inherent for us, how do you create a banner to where other people that may have not been here from the beginning are able to run with something and run with the vision?
And that's been, you know, a unique challenge for us as we've continued to grow is how do you get people into the building that believe the same thing that you believe and believe that immense value that these students have are also going to work extremely hard to continue the experiences and then continue the creativity and innovation that we want to bring to the program?
[00:15:23] Marcus: Where do you think the industry is going? Like, what's going to be the greatest disruptor for the industry that you're in? And if I were to frame the industry that you're in, it's about youth development, youth empowerment. Where's the industry going?
[00:15:37] David: Yeah, you know, for us, I don't think any player within the work that we do have fully figured out the alumni engagement work. So, you have a lot of amazing high school programs, but, you know, just take it for our very first group. We started with a group of 22 students. We didn't bring on any other students in that first four years. They graduated. And we didn't have a real true alumni engagement.
So, you go from being a part of a program for four straight years, having this set routine, being exposed to these resources and opportunities. And for some, you know, that really stuck with them and they're able to overcome challenges and get to where they want to get to. For others, it's like, "Oh, wait, wait, wait. I, I just had four years of support. And now, like, you're not giving me anything near what you were giving me."
You know, these 18-year-olds just have it all figured out as well. And so, what we've really been trying to do with our eight year arc is how do you create college-going and career-going programs that take a lot of the growth and the potential and the progress that you've been able to make in those four years and that amount of support doesn't decrease, but it continues throughout those pivotal 18 to 22 years, which are just so, so important?
And so, that's, I think, for us, and I think a lot of people around Detroit, are really trying to figure out how do you continue the progress to get these students not only graduating high school, but how do we get meaningful job and, you know, opportunities and internships in the college age years?
How do you help them persist through the challenges of going to college and institutions that they're culturally maybe not accustomed to, to ultimately get them into the careers that they want to? So, we talk a lot about livable wage and being able to take care of your family as being, like, one of the ultimate goals even starting in the ninth grade.
So, I think, when you talk about innovation, I still think there's a lot to be done to really truly figuring out how do you continue the progress so that that sustainability is there from these programs.
[00:17:53] Marcus: It's a point that can't be understated, that as an organization, you haven't set your sights on, like, what you do. We are helping prepare these high school kids, in some cases, middle school kids, for a college career so that their social mobility can rise, but instead you're widening this out, and the belief that these people, people like us, right, I'm a Detroiter, too, people like us deserve a chance at upward mobility.
And by scoping the problem, the ambition, through that lens, it becomes not just getting kids in school, but it's what's happening while they're in school, after school, and it widens the aperture on what Merit does. I think that's a really powerful thing that this exchanging the perspective of what we do to why we do it-
[00:18:43] David: Yeah.
[00:18:44] Marcus: ... it creates more opportunities for innovation, more opportunities for product offerings, and ultimately more opportunities to realize the ambition of the organization at large.
[00:18:55] David: Yep. And in large part, it is truly reframing their perspective to understand that a lot of the things that they are questioning about themselves, they are already proving on a day-to-day basis, right? So, I'll give you an example.
Very rarely, and we've been working hard on this, but very rarely will a FATE student use the FATE program in a college essay or use the FATE program on their resume to the point where they're saying, "I was at an after-school program for two and a half hours on a weekly basis from the ninth grade all the way to my 12th grade."
What does that show? That shows persistence. That shows consistency. That shows diligence. It shows so many values that colleges want in students, that careers and the workforce, they want out of young people. And it's just being able to show them that they are already resilient. Like, so the challenges that they're going through on a daily basis, you are overcoming so much already, but you don't view yourself as being resilient.
And so, for us, a big part of it is not only the perspective that we have, but we have to, kind of, help them shift their perspective to know that a lot of the things that we deem as positive qualities in people, they are already doing on a daily basis, and somebody just hasn't helped them recognize it. So, that's a big part of what we also are trying to accomplish.
[00:20:27] Marcus: Perspective as a disruptor. That is, I think, that is massive. Not only the perspective of you all as the curators of the environment, as John put it, the environment that you've created for these kids to reach their potential, but also helping them change their perspective so that they might fully live up to the fidelity of their potential. Yeah, John, what's your thought on that?
[00:20:51] John: So, we have a nasty term in business school. We call it scope creep, right? And it's a terrible thing in consulting. And Marcus, in his career in advertising, knows all about scope creep. But it seems to me that you've embraced scope creep.
And what I mean by that is you started Merit Goodness with a relatively well-defined, "This is what we're going to do," but over the years, the scope has creeped in all sorts of different directions as you've learned, right? You've gone through many, many iterations. And you've realized that there were barriers preventing these young people from moving. So, your scope creeped. And that's a good thing.
[00:21:33] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:21:33] John: I'm just so impressed with how you have evolved. So many organizations stand still-
[00:21:39] Marcus: Yeah.
[00:21:39] John: ... and they want to stick to their knitting, as we say in English, right? British English, stick to their knitting. But you've actually embraced the change, recognizing that this change is actually beneficial to the young people in the programs.
[00:21:51] David: Yeah, you know, it greatly depends on, I think, in business, what happens is that your shareholder price is so important that it doesn't even allow you the time to do ultimately what business is supposed to do, which is to serve people, right?
So, even when we started these organizations, had a great business mentor who is very, very, extremely successful in business. And he looked at our business plan and, "So, okay. You're trying to be in a fashion company. You're also trying to start a non-profit organization."
And he was like, "David, I don't know if you know this, but that's not how business works. First, you make the money. Like that's important. You make the money first, David. And then when you're older and you have all the money, that's when you start giving it back. Like, that's how business works, David. So, if you want to be successful in business, I suggest you cut this non-profit stuff out and purely focus on the for-profit fashion company because you won't be successful at the fashion company if you're spread too far, if your scope is what it is."
And you know what? He's 100% right. He was 100% right. But for us, it's not business. So, it is really the mission that drives what we do. We have not been able to create a successful fashion company. It hasn't happened. So, he's exactly right. We've done 12 years of it, but the difference is I'm not going anywhere.
So, if it takes me 40 years to figure out how to make both of them work, I've got 40 years of time, right, because I'm so tied to the mission and so tied to what we're doing, whereas in business, a lot of times, you just don't have that luxury to be at a place long enough to really care about what should be cared about.
And what is that? Making products and services that meet needs for people and make life better, right? And to do that in a way in which I'm empowering my employees, I'm creating an environment them to grow, it's just when you mix in the money part of it and the profit part of it, that's where it makes it very difficult to wander out of money and profit.
Like, it just makes it very hard to do. By any business standards, people would call Merit Goodness a failure, by any business standards. I think we're an astounding success. So, it was just, again, that perspective that you're looking at it that, I think, limits sometimes the ability to stick with something long enough for it to work, you know, beyond simple business terms.
[00:24:32] Marcus: How many kids have you gotten into college? And how many kids have graduated through the program?
[00:24:38] David: We've had four graduating classes. We've distributed over $300,000 in college scholarships. We have about 70 alumni right now. And the program is currently close to supporting about 200 students on an annual basis.
[00:24:53] Marcus: I mean, that sounds like success to me.
[00:24:57] John: Terrible business failure, David. Just, just awful.
[00:25:00] Marcus: How do you live with yourself, David? How do you look in the mirror?
[00:25:05] David: Yeah.
[00:25:05] Marcus: I mean, I think this is, again, the concept of refrain here. This is about perspective. And perhaps there's a lot that the business world can learn from this. John and I talk a lot about the most successful brands, the most powerful brands, are the brands that operate from an ideological level. And even if you look at brands who have been massively successful, like Nike, there was a time when Nike was almost out of business.
There was a time when Apple was almost out of business. That, you know, we have to start evaluating businesses through a wider time horizon because if we're only looking at a moment in time, a snapshot in time, especially in the early years, we miss the totality of its impact. And if I were to evaluate success, it's, well, what do you believe as an organization? What is the true objective? And it sounds to me, resoundingly, you all are activating against that and growing the business side as well.
[00:26:02] David: Yeah. I think a lot of it aligns with your book, Marcus, a lot of your lectures and your presentations. You know, when we first started, had another mentor. He was like, "You got to watch this Simon Sinek video."
Had another mentor who was like, "Hey, if you're going to start a business, you know, we got to have a vision. What's that vision? Where do you see this business in 10 years? And what's going to be unique about your business in a way from a value-driven standpoint, from a core principles standpoint? Like, what do you believe about young people?"
And one of my mentors made me write down that vision and get some of the stuff out there. And again, things have changed. Like, is everything exactly what we said? No. It doesn't look anything about what we said, but what is true is that core belief and that core mission that we help young people aspire.
How do we help them dream? How do we help them believe in themselves? And then if we can get them to aspire and believe, ultimately, we think that they will contribute to themselves, their families, and their communities.
[00:27:03] Marcus: Amen.
[00:27:04] David: So, even though the course has changed, the guiding light hasn't.
[00:27:08] Marcus: That's right.
[00:27:08] David: So, it's taken us different places, but I think we've done a really good job of keeping the main thing, the main thing.
[00:27:14] Marcus: I love that. I love that. The North Star.
[00:27:16] David: Yeah.
[00:27:16] Marcus: So, what advice would you give to future leaders who are looking to disrupt their industry, and maybe your industry?
[00:27:23] David: Yeah.
[00:27:23] Marcus: But what advice would you give them?
[00:27:25] David: My number one piece of advice is to not try to be sweet. I would say our first five to six years of business and organizations, even though it was within a slant of giving back, there was still a ton of ego and a ton of trying to prove people wrong in a sense that we could do certain things. And I would say we've probably lost at least $100,000 trying to be sweet, trying to have the best-looking website, and, "We got to throw this event."
That same mentor, I tried to go to him. And I was like, "Hey, we're going to do a fashion show on the DIA. And it's going to be at night. And the steps are going to come off, off the DIA steps from the Law Library. And we're going to have all these lights. And we're going to have the best fashion show ever." And he was like, "How much is it going to cost, David?" And I'm like, "$10,000." He's like, "$10,000? You're going to spend $10,000?"
He was like, "Do you know what else you could spend $10,000 on?" And I'm like, "I don't care. We're doing the fashion show. Will you sponsor?" He said, "No. I'm not sponsoring your fashion show. And you should be thinking about what else you can do with $10,000 because that's a lot of money." And I went ahead. We did the fashion show. We lost, I think, at least seven grand on the fashion show.
It didn't turn into sales. It didn't turn into, you know, long-term customer loyalty. And so, what it was, was me trying to prove that we're sweet, instead of me, like, really thinking about, "What are ways in which we can build our customer base and really test products, test ideas, minimum valuable products?" Like, that stuff is real. Like, you don't know what you don't know.
And so, what I would say is it's not about being sweet, but when you're making assumptions, especially in business and as leaders, make that assumption and then find that test case that just proves that one assumption. What we were doing more so was, like, assumption, assumption, assumption, assumption, assumption, proof. And we're, like, five steps past.
If we would just have stopped and said, "Assumption. Let's prove that assumption," we would have a lot more money in the bank. So, that would be my level of advice is that it's not about you. It's not about, yeah, you want to prove yourself, but ultimately, you got to be so tied to the mission of what you're doing, that it's not about the glitz and glamour and what, you know, people deem as success. It's not about having a store, you know.
We've closed three stores because we thought it was the store. It wasn't the store. It was the bad idea that you got. And you think it's going to be solved with building a nice store. And you can make a nice store, but it's like the lipstick. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't change what the problem that you have. It's that your idea is not good enough. Like, you got to, you got to make a better idea, like, before you open the store. Those are the types of things that I would share.
[00:30:13] Marcus: That is well-said, rich perspective. John, as we close out here, perspective as a disruptor, give us some thoughts on that.
[00:30:23] John: You know, Marcus, you and I see the world so very similarly because some of the notes which I took during David's talk were about point of view, having a point of view, having a conviction. And I even wrote this. Not having a hollow brand identity, but living true to your values, right?
And it seems to me, for all of our listeners out there, leadership really is about establishing a set of organizational values and living by those. And even if, to your point, even if the what we do changes, why we do it stays the same. And bravo to you, David, for 12 years of success and 40 more years according to your time horizon, yeah?
[00:31:07] David: Yeah, I got about 40. Let's see what my wife thinks about that, but I think about 40.
[00:31:12] Marcus: Well said, John. David, thank you so much for being so gracious with your time, man.
[00:31:16] David: No, I appreciate it. And I'd be remiss if I didn't let everyone know that Marcus Collins has made such a tremendous impact on what we do in our organization. And so, we greatly appreciate your continued support.
[00:31:29] Marcus: It's an honor, my brother. Thank you all so very much for joining us for another episode of Breaking Schemas. I'm Professor Marcus Collins, with my co-host, my co-everything, Professor John Branch, and the great leader and best, David Merritt. We'll see you next time. Thanks so much. Breaking Schemas is a Michigan Ross podcast, powered by the Yaffe Digital Media Initiative, and produced by University FM. Go, Blue!